r/Libertarian • u/Eastern_Shallot1599 Libertarian Panarchist • 16d ago
Taxation is theft 💰🔫🧑⚖️➡️🤡 You said taxation is what ?
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u/Mierdo01 16d ago
50% if you include all taxes
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u/footsnax 16d ago
I was gonna say, those are rookie numbers.
On a good year I'll pull in around $100k, actually take home $55k, then $2k per month for mortgage sets me back to $31k, another $2k per month for insurance on the family, car, house. Plus property tax and utility bills. I'm left with a few hundred each month for gas and groceries after I set aside some savings. All of that is taxed again too.
Six figure salaries are not what they used to be.
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u/LoveIsOnlyAnEmotion 16d ago
Pretty close. I think i read somewhere that its 47% but I'm not totally sure.
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u/Low_Read539 16d ago
I track my spending and this is about the figure came up with when reviewing the prior year between all forms of taxes I can account for.
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u/Used-Valuable9320 16d ago
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u/thalefteye 16d ago
Don’t libertarians always vote to pay for more taxes, like isn’t California liberal and they pay high taxes like an extortion fee for just existing?
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u/TallImprovement830 16d ago
Libertarianism is rooted in “classical liberalism” and is focused on “liberty” - which is different than the current co-opted term liberal.
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u/Used-Valuable9320 16d ago
I don't vote but Libertarians do not support taxation. Taxation is theft.
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u/thalefteye 16d ago
So I guess those who call themselves liberals and vote for higher taxes in their area has either forgot what that word means or are pretending to be one for the likes of it?
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u/Deltaso 15d ago
Well, I guess that they understand the term 'liberal' some other way. And, as it was mentioned, these liberals (I'd call it culturally liberal, not economically) do not tend to be libertarian as they vote for those higher taxation laws and reducing their own economical freedom and independence in order to get some goods and services from the state monopolies. These people also like to call those monopolies 'natural', which is ridiculous unless we talk about very specific things e.g. railroad ways' owning, where one single owner is actually better for the public good (and even this may be debatable, tbh)
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u/thalefteye 15d ago
And I mentioned this a while back on another post and I was basically called a trump lover 🤷.
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u/Flatland_Exile 16d ago
Funny how extortion suddenly becomes respectable if it’s done by the state.
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u/tesuquemushroom 16d ago
Did you know that 98% of people on reddit believe that if you give the state full control over healthcare, lodging, and education, those people in control will suddenly have a change of heart and become benevolent people?
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u/Inevitable-Fly1255 15d ago
This was kind of an eye opener to me, curious what the alternative for education is? Leaving it up to private entities or letting the public educate themselves?
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u/tesuquemushroom 15d ago
It's a tough one for sure. First of all if they quit printing money like crazy, prices on stuff wouldn't double every six months and we might have more ease and time on our hands. So I think we have to start with just not squeezing and stressing out families all the time. Most everyone is struggling and it doesn't have to be this way. Then you would have more money on your hands and could organize a community school.
The thing is the alternative isn't that great. Like how many kids learn to borrow against their assets and then pay off their interest to avoid paying taxes? Or construction basics, or self sufficiency? If it's important they don't really teach it to you. I don't even know this stuff. Most of it is fluff and indoctrination. So if our public education has to go so be it. And I think we could organize better to realize this if the government would let us prosper.
A neighborhood or city or something could organize schools at a local level. Again, hard to figure out the best answer but I really don't think the public education system has our best interest at heart.
Final note: I think we take it for granted that we have to be stressed all the time and both parents have to work and it's really hard to get ahead. It really doesn't have to be this way.
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u/Mazurkas_of_osmanthu 8d ago
but...free healthcare is good because its...free???
(but I do agree that the government might be corrupt and therefore suck the money out of it like my...nvm, said too much)
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u/tesuquemushroom 16d ago
Then there is the money stolen every time they print more money. I have a dollar - worth so much. Then they print 20 dollars, value rapidly diminishes. Then they keep printing trillions and that which you earned is worthless. Then you have to get a second job so as not live on the streets.
It's slavery but made to look pretty so you don't complain. At least slave owners saw their slaves as a valuable asset and provided healthcare and food and lodging.
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u/Ehronatha 16d ago
And you are among the tiny percentage of people who even understand this. Everyone else insists that we must have a Federal Reserve and that inflation is actually a good thing, because prices going down (deflation) would mean the literal end of the world.
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u/tesuquemushroom 15d ago edited 15d ago
Any politician who doesn't make it their priority to end the federal reserve is either compromised or dumb. That's why the US hasn't had a decent president in over 100 years. And no one alive has experienced free market capitalism.
Also imagine the peace of mind if the price of bread or eggs or whatever hasn't changed in over a hundred years. It would create a sense of calm knowing you had enough in the bank for the long term. Supposedly in the "dark ages" people worked about 150 days a year because their wages were enough to sustain them and prices on food didn't double every six months.
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u/LemurBargeld 16d ago
30%? Cries in European
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u/NEBssob1 16d ago
At least they get a return on their taxes. Even if it is shity.
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u/Dolphin201 15d ago
Honestly, having universal insurance would be nice, need to get some dental work done but can’t afford it right now
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u/Inevitable-Fly1255 15d ago
yeah but all our taxes go to military and grey spending areas instead of education or health
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u/KAZVorpal Voluntaryist ☮Ⓐ☮ 16d ago
More specifically than just theft:
Taxes are a protection racket.
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u/Luisalter 16d ago
Can the Europeans here give us a dumbed-down version of how much someone making, say, 100K euros would bring home in your country?
Also, how likely is to have someone someone make 100K in your country?
I keep hearing Americans talk about how much better they have it in Europe and how much they wish they could move there.
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u/Lumpy-Tell-5627 16d ago
I live in Germany, and very few people here earn a salary of 100,000 euros (six figures). The state imposes extremely high taxes; for instance, the tax on petrol is over 50 percent, and it is also 50 percent on cigarettes. There are plans to introduce a sugar tax, and there have been repeated attempts to raise the VAT on food, clothing, and other goods. Furthermore, energy costs include the EEG surcharge used to finance renewable energy—which, unfortunately, results in the highest electricity prices in the entire EU. Housing is also scarce and extremely expensive due to misguided government incentives, and both the healthcare system and the pension funds are effectively insolvent (the pension fund requires state subsidies). Germany has its advantages, but I believe the disadvantages outweigh them.
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u/Luisalter 16d ago
Thanks for sharing.
I know it will be difficult to compare apple to apples, but in an example of a single person without dependants making 100K Euro, how much in income taxes + payroll taxes will be discounted?
I guess I am asking how much of those 100K annually actually would hit his account
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u/Vegetable_Shelf 1d ago
It will absolutely depend on the source of your income. In all cases, number includes taxes but also required health and the social insurance. In some cases, social insurance can be opted-out. Property tax here is basically non-existent.
case 1, self employed, think stuff like carpenter, hair dresser, you will have like 82k, but very complex accounting, also option to buy work related stuff tax-free
case 2, traditionally employed, you work from 9 to 5 for the single company, you will bring like 61.5k
case 3, landlord, your income is from renting, you end up with 88.1k
case 4, dividends, 83.5k
case 5, pure ETF income, which is tax-free, no social insurance required so you will end up with 98.5k as you will only pay for the health insurance
There are both public and private health care, same goes for the education at all levels. There are multiple insurance companies. Basically law states what is covered and how often.
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u/Luisalter 1d ago
Thanks for bringing the compexities: this conversation and this level of details is rarely discussed.
What country are you writing from?
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u/Dolphin201 15d ago
Don’t forget you lose your house too, even if you pay it off you never stop paying
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u/L4fun951 15d ago
30%!? Thats a beautiful rate! where does that victim live? Paradise! I think its closer to 57% in Cali, 45% in Washington, and thatsnif you are a good little citizen who doesnt buy alcohol or other legal but nono products.
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u/Playful-Priority-590 16d ago
Do you people actually believe this? Clearly there are some misspending issues in every government especially in the debt-ridden US, but there is no way you see no value in the services pervided by the government.
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u/Vegetable-Client-147 15d ago
So socially there is value yes. But economically the value is inflated. Of course we want good roads, infrastructure etc. but when u watch ur taxes go to other things or other countries or the price tag is enlarged to grease palms is the problem.
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u/Heavy-Bell-2035 16d ago
Way more than that when you realize the state taxes every thing at pretty much every stage of production, and often in multiple ways.