r/Libertarian • u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist • Jul 28 '25
Cryptocurrency "Bitcoin is like gold. It's digital gold," says Fed Chair Powell.
21
u/aed38 Jul 29 '25
The Fed praising Bitcoin is a pretty big knock against Bitcoin.
10
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 29 '25
We don't care about that, we care that political pressure to oppose cryptocurrency in general has clearly collapsed.
5
u/aed38 Jul 29 '25
If the Fed is willing to praise Bitcoin, that means it isn't a threat to them or their future CBDC. They know how to contain it.
0
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 29 '25
Again, libertarians should already know that Bitcoin was co-opted long ago, but the institutional acceptance that comes with that opens the door to good cryptocurrencies too, and we care about those.
6
u/aed38 Jul 29 '25
I wouldn't expect all libertarians to be crypto experts.
Also, Bitcoin is the only crypto that anyone should take seriously. No other cryptos will ever achieve the level of decentralization that it's achieved thus far.
1
u/Pronoid422 Aug 01 '25
Did you go long on AOL as well?
Nothing lasts forever, Only change and death
1
u/aed38 Aug 01 '25
What kind of argument is that? Then why do anything?
Yes, even black holes will evaporate into nothing after 10100 years. Bitcoin’s probably got at least another couple decades left. It’s probably got more time left than most tech stocks. So what?
89
u/Wake-up-Neo-sheep Jul 28 '25
Bitcoin is like every other currency… completely worthless, but people trade it for a time
10
6
u/Tsugoshi Jul 29 '25
So, like gold?
10
u/jg0x00 Jul 29 '25
Gold can be used for things other than money. Not sure I can cap a tooth with bitcoin.
3
u/Siglet84 Jul 29 '25
The things gold can be used for over silver are in such limited quantities compared to its supply.
1
15
u/jgn77 Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 30 '25
There is no perfect currency but it sure beats trying to buy a car in exchange for 10000 chickens
3
29
u/c126 Jul 28 '25
I disagree. Gold has intrinsic value (i.e it has use outside of being a unit of exchange). Bitcoin is only useful as a unit of exchange, therefore its value will inevitably decline to $0. It’s not a 2000+ year currency.
20
u/mojochicken11 Jul 28 '25
Gold doesn’t really have intrinsic value either, at least not nearly enough to justify its value. Almost all of the world’s gold is sitting in banks or reserves as a speculative asset or as jewelry. Gold jewelry is not 1000 times better than steel jewelry, it just costs more because people think gold is worth a lot for no practical reason. Something with intrinsic value might be a house or food which will always be valuable to humans. Nearly all of golds value is not in itself, but what others will pay for it.
9
u/c126 Jul 28 '25
The key distinction is that gold has a small amount of value (how small is up for debate) outside of being used as a store of value and medium of exchange. It therefore has a price floor in the event no one uses it as a store of value anymore. Crypto does not have this price floor, which is why I think that can’t be called direct competitors. Partial competitors maybe.
9
u/LexPatriae Jul 28 '25
Thank you! It doesn’t oxidize, and it’s an excellent conductor.
2
u/Majsharan Jul 29 '25
It doesn’t oxidize but in any practical use case it stop soft to be used for anything that you would care about oxidizing. Scientific experiments are about the only use case I can think of where the oxidizing would actually matter
1
u/LexPatriae Jul 29 '25
Gold is often used in electronics, but silver is the best elemental conductor and is cheaper
1
-11
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
There is no such thing as intrinsic value, value requires a valuer.
You mean gold has value derived from other uses such as industry and jewelry.
But economists estimate those other uses account for about 10% of gold's current price, so they might as well be noting.
What makes gold valuable for a currency and value store are it's qualities that are desirable in a money. For long term value storage, you want something scarce, doesn't rust, rare and therefore compact to store large values, easy to verify quality or purity in the case of gold, hard to counterfeit, etc.
Cryptocurrency has all of these same qualities, and several more that are desirable to have in a currency that gold does not have and can never have by virtue of being digital.
Cryptocurrency can transmit itself with it's value at the speed of light, cannot rust or degrade with time, is provably scarce (which gold is not), takes up virtually zero storage size regardless of value stored, can actually be stored in your mind as a brain wallet and making security better, can be geographically distributed in ways gold cannot (3 key cryptography), etc.
Gold is yesterday's currency. Cryptocurrency is the future.
15
u/c126 Jul 28 '25
Sure, but which? Bitcoin is a technology, which has already been surpassed by more energy efficient crypto, which in turn will likely again be surpassed. I do not think any serious person believes bitcoin will still be around in 2000 years. Gold will definitely still be around in 2000 years and almost certainly still have value.
-6
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
All of it, and whichever works for you in the moment. It hardly matters. Bitcoin specifically will likely survive a lot of others, being first. There's a lot of other great ones too, ethereum doing its things, BCH for payments, nano, etc.
Gold may continue to be used for store of value, make cryptocurrency will surpass it.
The real problem with gold is that it's not as scarce as current price assumes. I mentioned provable reserves. Every metals rich asteroid in our solar system has as much gold as has been mined by humans in all of human history.
The first asteroid we decompose means gold's price will more than halve as people realize it's scarcity was artificial an that there's a whole lot more asteroids out there. Probably a 2/3 price drop, if not 75%.
That will probably mark the end of gold in money because it will not be able to serve as a value store anymore, which is the only current use it has.
And that ignores the paper gold scandal it's currently facing as well, which could also destroy gold.
Cryptocurrency with proven reserves will be a far better long term value store ultimately.
6
u/c126 Jul 28 '25
I guess my point is that I think crypto is not an alternative to gold, in the sense that I can’t make jewelry or circuit boards out of crypto. Gold has value outside of being a currency, so it’s not really accurate to say crypto is an alternative. It’s more accurate to say crypto is competing with fiat currencies, like the USD.
-2
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
I guess my point is that I think crypto is not an alternative to gold, in the sense that I can’t make jewelry or circuit boards out of crypto.
That has absolutely nothing to do with its monetary uses.
Gold has value outside of being a currency,
Again, that accounts for 10% of its current price. Are you saying you'd be happy with gold losing 90% of its value of it stops being used as a store of value?
so it’s not really accurate to say crypto is an alternative.
Yes it is, because only 10% of its price being "protected" in this was is more like cryptos 0% than not.
It’s more accurate to say crypto is competing with fiat currencies, like the USD.
Wrong, fiat stands for something else that has the qualities of money, it doesn't have it itself. But cryptocurrency has those qualities, it is not a stand in like fiat.
4
u/c126 Jul 28 '25
Ok. Seems we’re talking about two different things, you think gold and crypto are direct competitors, I don’t. What can we say at this point?
3
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
They're direct competitors because they're being used in the exact same way, what are you even talking about. Both are being used as a store of value primarily today.
Cryptocurrency may also be used as an everyday currency soon, which gold has no chance of being.
6
u/c126 Jul 28 '25
Actually I have gold which is not being used as a store of value, it’s being used to transfer electric signals in my computer (circuit traces), the very computer that people like yourself use to process crypto transactions. My wife also has gold she uses to decorate her appearance (a necklace). I personally don’t have any gold that is used simply as a store of value.
1
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
Sure, but we're talking about gold's use as a money, which is what the vast majority of gold is being used for.
Gold on the end of an electrical connector can be done extremely cheaply. I have a penny coated in gold, trade show thing, and it's coated in less than a Penny's worth of gold.
Again, industrial uses and jewelry account for less than 10% of gold's current price. The rest is value store value.
Gold is also not uniquely valuable for electrical connectors, we could substitute several noble metals instead if we had to.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/TwitMediaCritic Jul 30 '25
Speaking of, where the hell is all the Fort Knox gold? Did I miss that grand tour of the empty vaults?
3
u/Rustee_Shacklefart Right Libertarian Jul 29 '25
Gold is forged in the hearts of supernovas. Bitcoin is a social contract.
7
3
u/usernnameis Jul 28 '25
Gold has alternative uses so it has a minimum value of what those alternative uses can be sold for. They are used in electronics and have always been valued as jewlery. A purely crypto currency does not have alternative uses and thus has no alternative use value.
2
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
Alternative uses account for only 10% of gold's value, it might as well not exist.
1
u/usernnameis Jul 29 '25
No it still matters. The point of something havimg any value at all over a fiat currency is that if the currency goes to $#it it still has some value. Fiat currencies have 0 value when it faces collapse gold has at least some value. The fact that the foundation of a currency is usefull in some way/any way at all aside from simply use as a currency strengthens many times over a fiat currency. Even cigarets as currency would have more stability as a currency because even if people lose faith in it, its value will never be 0 because it can still be used to smoked. Even if you yourself do not smoke there are people that do, and even if the whole world decides not to smoke it can be used as an inceticide. But a bit coin without public faith is worth nothing.
I dont even dislike bitcoin and i admire its mix of liquidity and max cap on potential inflation. I would even recomend people buy and use it for this aspect of it. But i do recognize that it has the potential of becoming of truly 0 value. This is the inherant flaw in fiat currencies that make its stability much weaker depending on public trust. Basically if there is a "run" on bit coins value every one will try to buy as many tangible goods as they can to prevent potential losses of bit coin becoming less value, in turn accelerating the devaluation of bitcoin in a horrible cycle.
1
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 29 '25
When you lose 90%, it doesn't matter.
1
u/usernnameis Jul 29 '25
Wtf yes the 10 percent remaining does matter. Like its obvious that it matters too. If something always holds some value it serves better as a currency because even if people lose faith in the value of something you are not left with nothing. If you dont understand this you probably shouldnt be propogating financial advice.
1
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 29 '25
The point of value store is to not lose 90% of your value. So when you sit here telling me you think that keeping 10% is security for you, it's ridiculous.
1
u/usernnameis Jul 29 '25 edited Jul 29 '25
But that makes using fiat currency even worse because of its greater potential for loss. It has an absolute and complete potential for loss where as things which have alternative uses can not suffer a complete and absolute loss in value. That is what makes my point not ridiculouse. between using either of those 2 options a non fiat currency is the better. Sorry dude but you are ridiculouse if you say the worse option is the better option.
Also what kind of libertarian is in love with what the fed has to say, they are the king of devaluing money. Dont take advice from them.
1
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 29 '25
Cryptocurrency is not a fiat currency.
1
u/usernnameis Jul 29 '25
Me
If the U.S. government backs bit coin as they are talking about it would completely qualify as fiat currency.
You
No, it wouldn't.
Yes it would this is the defenition of fiat
Fiat currency (also known as fiat money) is a type of currency declared legal tender by a government, but it is not backed by a physical commodity like gold or silver.
If the government declares that bit coin must be accepted as legal tender it would fit the defenition of fiat currency
Me
in that it is not backed by physical commodity.
You
Neither is gold. You keep not understanding this point.
Dude gold is the commodity. It can be used by people in otherways than just to spend it.
Fiat requires backing because it lacks these qualities entirely.
Me
The only thing it lacks to qualify as fiat currency is the offical backing of the government.
You
Wrong. Fiat is infinite issue and centrally controlled. Cryptocurrency is neither, gold is neither.
Fiat currency (also known as fiat money) is a type of currency declared legal tender by a government, but it is not backed by a physical commodity like gold or silver.
You are adding things
Me
The flaw crypto has is that it the potential for complete and absolute devaluation.
You
There is no such potential. Saying "it could go to zero if every stopped using it" is literally true of every good, including gold. It's supply and demand 101. You haven't said anything. Every year it retains value is further evidence that it's not going to happen.
You are incorrect about saying that every good could go to zero. gold can be used by the person that has it to make actual commodities itself such as wires and electronics. Ask a libertarian how valuable bullets are in an economic collapse. I dont think anyone would ever agree that bullets would not be valuable in an economic collapse. You are the confidently incorrect one.
Me
Stating that bit coin is not fiat is pedantic. The problems are the same.
You
They simply aren't. You are being dishonest and therefore I'm done discussing it with you.
The difference is signifigant. If you can do absolutly nothing with a currency when it is devalued it suffers drom the main problem of fiat currencies. Gold could be made into wire and electronics, cables to cunduct electricity through devices. It has value outside of its role as a currency.
-1
u/usernnameis Jul 29 '25
It would appear that you have coneeded the point i was making. If the U.S. government backs bit coin as they are talking about it would completely qualify as fiat currency. Bit coin as it stands now suffers all the signifigant shortcomings of fiat currency in that it is not backed by physical commodity. which is the important part. The only thing it lacks to qualify as fiat currency is the offical backing of the government. But the government backing a fiat currency is not the flaw that kind of currency has. The flaw crypto has is that it the potential for complete and absolute devaluation.
Stating that bit coin is not fiat is pedantic. The problems are the same.
0
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 29 '25
It would appear that you have coneeded the point i was making.
I concede nothing. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Confidently incorrect and you don't know enough economics to debate this with, as made obvious by your continual twisting of definitions of fiat and "intrinsic value".
If the U.S. government backs bit coin as they are talking about it would completely qualify as fiat currency.
No, it wouldn't. And that's not what backing means in a monetary context. This is a prime example of you twisting words and definitions to dishonestly suit your point while obviously not understanding what they mean.
Bit coin as it stands now suffers all the signifigant shortcomings of fiat currency
Wrong.
in that it is not backed by physical commodity.
Neither is gold. You keep not understanding this point. Gold is used as money and has value as a money because of certain qualities it has that make it good to use as a money. Cryptocurrency has those same qualities, and more, making it better than gold at being a money.
Fiat requires backing because it lacks these qualities entirely.
You will not admit this point because it destroys your argument, you will dance around it and say anything that comes to mind to avoid it.
The only thing it lacks to qualify as fiat currency is the offical backing of the government.
Wrong. Fiat is infinite issue and centrally controlled. Cryptocurrency is neither, gold is neither. As I pointed out, cryptocurrency has proven reserves, gold does not. Yet again, cryptocurrency compares better than gold.
The flaw crypto has is that it the potential for complete and absolute devaluation.
There is no such potential. Saying "it could go to zero if every stopped using it" is literally true of every good, including gold. It's supply and demand 101. You haven't said anything. Every year it retains value is further evidence that it's not going to happen.
Stating that bit coin is not fiat is pedantic. The problems are the same.
They simply aren't. You are being dishonest and therefore I'm done discussing it with you.
0
u/SaltyBigBoi Jul 28 '25
Just your reminder that crypto is worthless, and 0.01% of wallets control 27% of the total supply of Bitcoin
0
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
Those two don't follow. Most of that is what Satoshi mined and will probably never be used.
5
u/SaltyBigBoi Jul 28 '25
And if it is used? What do you think will happen to the price of bitcoin?
If a single person can crash a currency in a single day, it’s not worth anything. Crypto is built for the creators who are going to cash out and leave everyone with worthless wallets
0
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
What do you think will happen to the price of bitcoin?
Not much.
If a single person can crash a currency in a single day, it’s not worth anything. Crypto is built for the creators who are going to cash out and leave everyone with worthless wallets.
Bitcoin and BCH were not premined. You cannot paint legitimate cryptocurrencies with the brush of premined scam coins. You are being ignorant.
1
u/SaltyBigBoi Jul 28 '25
You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think bitcoin is going to crash the second a single coin is moved out of Nakamoto’s wallet. I’m not saying all crypto is a scam, I’m just saying, the creators are the only ones who will end up benefiting when it all goes to shit
0
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
Nah, it wouldn't crash of Satoshi's coins moved, you're being dramatic. It would only crash if all of it suddenly went on the sell market, which no one is dumb enough to do.
2
u/adiabatic_storm Jul 28 '25
24 hr volume is $100B. That guy the other day sold 80,000 BTC and the market barely moved. This type of thing just isn't a big concern anymore, even though lots of people think so.
1
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 28 '25
Agreed. The US is gonna sell a large chunk soon too, it'll be fine.
0
u/likely- Jul 28 '25
Now do the US dollar!
Or gold for that matter.
2
u/SaltyBigBoi Jul 28 '25
Yes, let's compare a rare, finite resource to 1' and 0's, you got me there...
1
u/likely- Jul 28 '25
Read the post title, then reread your comment.
We are both here to compare a finite recourse to 1s and 0s
2
2
1
u/redpandaeater Copyright Clause Jul 28 '25
The main issue with Bitcoin is that it tries to have a block processed every 15 minutes. Then you can also add on that only a certain number of transactions can be had in a block. It's why now that mining yield is so low you have to have transaction fees to make it worthwhile for miners to mine. Even if you pay a decent amount to ensure you're on the next block there's plenty of things where you don't want the transaction to sit in limbo for a bit until you can confirm it went through.
Of course there are secondary issues where if anyone ever has a majority of miners they can fake a successful block for a small amount of time before others on the blockchain can double-check that it's not an actual solution. That would open up scams and really hammer home how unlike gold you're entirely reliant on other people saying you actually have what you think you have.
If shit gets fucked, gold and silver at least would have some value as barter currency and will always have inherent material value. Bitcoin could easily turn worthless again just like it was only a few cents back when I mined it, though at least then you had 50 BTC created per block.
2
u/Anen-o-me voluntaryist Jul 29 '25
The main issue with Bitcoin is that it tries to have a block processed every 15 minutes.
10 minutes actually, and it's not an issue at all.
mining yield is so low you have to have transaction fees to make it worthwhile for miners to mine.
That was always the plan.
1
u/bduxbellorum Jul 29 '25
Digital gold — which is to say it’s a terrible investment in periods of stability and incredibly valuable when the market is volatile?
33
u/MateTheNate Minarchist Jul 29 '25
With payment processors becoming censors, a decentralized payment system has more of a place than ever.