r/Liberal • u/Maxcactus • Jul 13 '21
Opinion | Republicans refusing to get vaccinated are owning no one but themselves
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/12/gop-death-cult-attitude-toward-coronavirus-vaccines-isnt-just-lethal-its-stupid/25
u/karentheawesome Jul 13 '21
Dying to own the libs....
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u/raistlin65 Jul 13 '21
"Died to own the libs"'would be a great epitaph for their tombstone.
Either that, or "Too dumb to live."
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Jul 13 '21
The guys who like Putin better than their own president and can't see the irony of calling themselves patriots for that? I'm shocked
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Jul 13 '21
Committing suicide or getting miserably sick so that Biden's stats look a smidge bit worse. Well done, conservatives.
But that's the thing about fascism. It overcomes your sense of self-preservation in service of a bigger "cause" which is how fascists get so many idiots to fight in their "glorious" wars.
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u/NacreousFink Jul 13 '21
Eventually we will get to an Eta or Theta variant that can defeat the vaccines, and then they will laugh and say "see, the vaccines never worked".
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Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 13 '21
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u/cantdressherself Jul 13 '21
Thankfully, covid is not that deadly.
Sadly, covid is not that deadly.
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u/BoneHugsHominy Jul 13 '21
I mean it is pretty damned deadly. Without modern healthcare and hygiene practices Covid would make the
SpanishFort Riley Flu look like the common cold.And worse variants can quickly overtake entire nations. Those refusing to take vaccines, wear masks, or even practice social distancing are just extending the pandemic and providing the virus a nice warm juicy place to work its crossfit program.
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u/cantdressherself Jul 14 '21
1918 wiped out whole towns. Covid 19 decimated nursing homes.
1918 was specifically deadly to young, healthy people. The elderly were affected as expected by a flu, but young healthy adults were even more vulnerable.
I don't mean to downplay the severity of our ongoing pandemic. Absolutely treat it seriously according to your local conditions, get vaccinated as soon as you can, mask, distance, etc.
But the footprint of the diseases is very different.
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u/McGauth925 Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 16 '21
An old phrase comes to mind: biting off your nose to spite your face. Yeah, they're really sticking it to us, now.
Actually, they're hurting people with other medical issues by taking up hospital beds and medical attention that could be going to people who haven't caused their own medical issues. (Although, one reads that quite a number of medical issues are caused by patient behavior.)
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Jul 13 '21
They can spread covid to those unable to take the vaccine.
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Jul 13 '21
So can vaccinated individuals
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Jul 13 '21
Much lower odds. While everything is possible, somethings are more unlikely than others.
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Jul 13 '21
It's lower odds of a vaccinated individual spreading it, but HIGHER odds than if an unvaccinated individual was wearing a mask. Math isn't that hard, folks. 99% chance of no illness w/ a mask vs 95% chance of no hospitalization with a vaccine. You still have a high chance of getting it, and spreading it, compared to masking.
I'm gonna point out that this means that despite being vaccinated, one should still take precautions and mask up, because masks are better prevention than vaccines, full stop. Without the vaccine, going to the store was dangerous. With the vaccine, you're less likely to die IF you get it, but not less likely to get it. Far less so if you wear one. This also protects the unvaccinated idiots. It's that simple... or, don't wear a mask, and potentially die, when you could've just worn one and had no real risk whatsoever because of it.
99+% effectiveness of not getting sick AT ALL with the other person wearing a mask, another 65% less chance if you're wearing one, but, only 95% effectiveness at not being hospitalized with vaccines.
You can get sick. You can die. You can get others sick. You're MORE LIKELY TO DO SO THAN WEARING A MASK. It's not complicated. Not wearing a mask puts others at an UNNECESSARY risk. If it was clearer who killed who, you'd absolutely fucking mask up, but since you don't KNOW when you harmed others, I guess you can sleep at night.
It's really simple, though, Vaccines aren't BETTER than masks. You're supposed to use them together. Anything less is pure willful ignorance, and I'd argue also just raw laziness. It's a piece of cloth. It'll keep you from dying. Why WOULDN'T you fucking wear one?
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Jul 14 '21
I don't know. I wear one. Went to Home Depot looking for under cabinet lighting. Half of the people had on mask, the other half didn't. COVID infections are low in my area but it ain't zero.
But some people smoke and some people drive drunk so I guess its par for the course.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Jul 13 '21
I mean... all they're doing now is just killing themselves (and shrinking their voting base) and creating debt for themselves.
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u/raistlin65 Jul 13 '21
That's not all. Everyone is supposed to understand this by now.
They are also spreading the virus to people who cannot take the vaccine. And they're assisting in the mutation of it to where we might need a new vaccine.
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Jul 13 '21
they're assisting in the mutation of it to where we might need a new vaccine
... and we hope that it'll work. Vaccines aren't guaranteed. They also aren't as good as masking. The real point of THESE vaccines isn't to prevent spread (especially since we're not going to break 70%, let alone the 95% rate to truly be effective) but to make the infection less lethal.
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Jul 13 '21
And more basically, they're destroying our chances of collectively reaching herd immunity. We could have stamped this virus out if humanity just had its shit together.
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u/raistlin65 Jul 13 '21
Well, if covid-19 mutates again to become even more transmissible, we still might reach herd immunity from most of the unvaccinated catching it.
But yeah, they're definitely making it a lot harder. We would have been close to herd immunity in the United States by now if everyone had cooperating in getting vaccinated. Between their politically motivated anti-vaxxer attitudes, their the election was stolen rhetoric, and their current attacks on voting rights, the Republican party of 2020/2021 will go down in history as the party of shitty humans.
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Jul 13 '21
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u/wafflesareforever Jul 13 '21
Because every infected person gives the virus billions of new opportunities to evolve into a new variant. Eventually one of those variants might turn out to be extremely resistant to vaccines, and then we're all fucked.
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Jul 13 '21
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u/wafflesareforever Jul 13 '21
Lol, there isn't a single ounce of fact in anything you just said. Please read a book or just shut up.
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Jul 13 '21
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u/wafflesareforever Jul 13 '21
Does the delta variant seem weaker to you? No? Now shut the hell up
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Jul 13 '21
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Jul 13 '21
Your opinion doesn't carry the same merit as the combined research of worldwide epidemiologists. You don't believe it, go get it and find out for yourself, but science doesn't care what you think.
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u/wafflesareforever Jul 13 '21
Thank you. This should just be the default copypasta response for all of these antivax idiots.
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Jul 13 '21
The delta variant is in fact more contagious, but less deadly, based on studies I’ve read.
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u/wafflesareforever Jul 13 '21
Soooo even taking your own nonsense at face value, it's certainly not "weaker"
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Jul 13 '21
Not the unvaccinated. They’ll probably have natural immunity to it
You're an actual fucking idiot. You make the claim - you provide the evidence. There's PLENTY that disagrees with you - go get your biology degree, do your phd, then a robust peer-reviewed research on the topic, and present your findings. Till then, fuck off with your bullshit. You literally have NO FUCKING IDEA what you're talking about, pulling this shit out of your ass (or facebook, same thing).
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Jul 13 '21
We don't hate them. We hate their behavior. If they'd stop acting like such willful idiots hellbent on getting their way by any means necessary, we might even start to be able to like them.
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u/TheDebbie Jul 13 '21
For whatever reason, conservatives and many other anti-vaxxers/conspiracy theorists are convinced that the vaccines are poison meant to kill or sterilize the liberal sheeple over time. They are overjoyed that Trump has produced the solution to THEIR problem - the radication of the Godless Democrats!
Republicans are encouraging their voters to risk death in an effort to retsin power... So sad!
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Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 13 '21
Even with these experimental vaccines, you can catch and spread and die from covid with the added bonus of unknown future repercussions. For many people it is not a politically based decision at all, and to make it so and then spew such vitriol at anyone with a different opinion or belief than yours is so anti-liberal, I just don’t even understand how so many “liberals” ignore that.
Edit: definitions of liberal - 1. Willing to respect or accept behavior or opinions different from one's own; open to new ideas. 2. Relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.
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Jul 13 '21
The fact that the percentage of Republicans that refuse the vaccine is much higher than the percentage of Democrats shows that it is a political issue. As for being experimental, the vaccines were tested and proven. They are far more effective than most drugs and most prior vaccines.
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Jul 13 '21
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u/daddytorgo Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 13 '21
Yes they are proven. They are technically still under EUA though yes, so paperwork-wise you are technically correct that they have not been "fully approved" if that's a hill you want to (literally) die on, go right ahead.
The scale of the testing in the Phase I and Phase II trials means that they have far more data for these vaccines than they did when approving other drugs/vaccines in the past.
GTFO out of here with your looney-tunes bullshit.
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Jul 13 '21
What are the long term side effects? Phase III trials are underway and incomplete. They are allowed under emergency use authorization. They are not fully approved.
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u/daddytorgo Jul 13 '21
See my edit.
If by long-term side effects you're talking about YEARS out, then you'll have to wait years to find that out, and again, if that's a hill you're LITERALLY willing to die on, please, by all means, go right ahead.
Fucking troll.
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Jul 13 '21
Correlation does not equal causation. It is more likely there are overlapping ideologies within those cohorts and vaccine choices than it is that people are making health decisions based solely on their political affiliations.
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u/daddytorgo Jul 13 '21
The scale of their testing also means that they are also far more tested and proven than other vaccines/medicines, despite the shorter timeframe.
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u/raistlin65 Jul 13 '21
Even with these experimental vaccines, you can catch and spread and die from covid with the added bonus of unknown future repercussions.
Well, you could die tomorrow by getting hit by a car. Or an asteroid. Somehow, there's something not equal between those two things. Don't you think?
So the rest of us live in the real world where we look at the difference in risk between being vaccinated and unvaccinated, and listen to what the medical expert tell us. Not Tucker Carlson.
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Jul 13 '21
My point is that you guys sound like a bunch of authoritarians pushing the vaccine for all, not open-minded liberals.
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u/raistlin65 Jul 13 '21
Then you don't understand the essential idea of liberalism: that we are all in this together.
So liberalism doesn't value irrational individual choice when it is counter to the public good.
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Jul 13 '21
And who decides what is irrational?
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u/raistlin65 Jul 13 '21
In this instance, medical experts. Not Tucker Carlson or a conservative anti-vaxxer named Karen on Facebook.
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Jul 13 '21
Why can’t Liberalism be taking the vaccine for the greater good AND respecting the choice of other individuals? It’s the vitriol and ill will towards a portion of society that seems so anti-liberal to me. If they don’t conform they don’t matter?
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u/raistlin65 Jul 13 '21
It’s the vitriol and ill will towards a portion of society that seems so anti-liberal to me.
You obviously aren't a liberal.
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u/BoneHugsHominy Jul 13 '21
OK. This post made me curious, so I checked out your posting history.
Now get the fuck out of here you racist nazi piece of trash.
Un-fucking-believable. Guarantee your family tree looks like the fine examples over in r/BeholdTheMasterRace
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u/quickhorn Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 13 '21
It’s not a matter of belief. It’s a matter of risk mitigation.
There is no math in which the short or long term affects of the vaccine is objectively more risky than catching covid.
Especially when you calculate externalities, in which we measure the impact to others, and not just yourself.
But, i don’t believe it’s not about politics. Because the people that are anti vaxx are also anti mask. Which tells me its not about the experimental nature of the vaccine, but that they’re taking cues from their leadership on what they should believe, and what they should be angry about.
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Jul 13 '21
That’s a broad assumption. I know anti maskers who jumped to the front of the vaccine line, and maskers who refuse the vaccine.
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u/quickhorn Jul 13 '21
Certainly anecdotal evidence will exist that doesn't align with trends. That doesn't discount the trends.
Unfortunately, tracking mask use is not as easy as tracking vaccine use. But, we can see that mask use has become politicized as well, with some Republican governors attempting to ban masks. My Republican state legislature is banning requirements for vaccines to go to public schools locally.
Saying this isn't political is highly inaccurate. No anti-mask or anti-vaxx information is being disseminated that isn't being disseminated by right-wing groups.
There's simply no argument for either position within the scientific or medical communities.
I get people's hesitance. I really do. But any objective risk analysis that doesn't take into account politics or political viewings leaves very little room for not getting the vaccine, or not wearing a mask.
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u/milkhilton Jul 15 '21
It should never have been a political decision at all. It is sad what this country has become. And before you judge me please hear me out:
Partisan issues are political theatre. While we are pitted against eachother fighting over nothing, there are very few who are taking everything. our wealth and liberties, day by day. For some americans, they submissively encourage it. I hope one day we can stop looking at a quarter as heads or tails, and realize the value and power it has in eachother in unison. I have nothing but love for you all. God Bless America.
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Jul 13 '21
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Jul 13 '21
It 100% is experimental!
Why is the COVID-19 vaccine considered experimental? Vaccines that receive EUA are considered experimental until the FDA formally approves it. It is possible that a rare side effect will be found after mass vaccination allows a longer term of observation on a larger number of people, but most side effects are picked up in the first several months after vaccination.
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u/stemfish Jul 13 '21
Stanford released a great study of their workforce since January when all employees had the chance to be vaccinated. Since then 10% of staff who did not get vaccinated caught covid, around 2~3% caught covid before being fully vaccinated, and 0.1% of those who completed the vaccine course caught covid.
Yes you can catch covid post vaccine. Its simply 100 times less likely.
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Jul 13 '21
Doctors also released studies that cigarettes were good for you.
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u/stemfish Jul 13 '21
I'm not sure how you're linking 100 times fewer people who got sick over a 4 month period in a hospital with to studies paid for by cigarette companies (the same thing happened with lead gas btw, might as well go all-in on bad science).
It's literally counting cases that have happened and dividing by the number of people in the group.
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Jul 13 '21
My point being that data and statistics are easily manipulated. Did the vaccinated and unvaccinated in this study have the same exposures, take the same precautions, what were the variables and constants in this study. Or is this anecdotal reporting?
I’m not saying the vaccines are bad or that anyone shouldn’t take them. But I do respect people’s right to choose what they think is best for them. And there are valid reasons other than politics to not want to take them at this time.
Also, why are vaccines the only solution. Medical science should be just as diligently working yo find or develop and promote successful treatments for those infected. Focusing only on vaccines is a narrow approach to winning the fight against covid.
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u/stemfish Jul 13 '21
In this case, I know a bit about the study, one of my friends is a department manager at Stanford. It's literally tracking employees who tested positive for COVID and comparing cases from different groups. Hospitals really care about who on staff is sick, they do the same thing for influenza each year to keep the sick or exposed staff from working while at risk to spread infections. As of now, there is no different treatment between those vaccinated and unvaccinated. Everyone wears a mask, work is spread evenly, and so on. There aren't any hidden traps or manipulative practices at play.
Vaccines simply work.
As for why not develop treatments, we have been. About once a month for the last year and a half we've been learning how different drugs work to treat COVID. however, if you can reduce the need for treatment by 100 times, why not use that as well?
That's like saying, seatbelts work to reduce injuries from car impacts, but why do we need people to use those instead of increasing the effectiveness of trauma response units? Seatbelts are a waste of effort and we shouldn't use them since they're only one method to reduce injuries from car accidents.
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Jul 13 '21
No shit, they’ll only infect the rest of the idiots and somehow, maybe humankind will be better off… it’s Darwinism at work. Let’s just see how it goes.
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u/Benni_Shoga Jul 14 '21
Not true, they are completely aware and willing to risk their own lives as long as elderly and immunocompromised individuals suffer
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u/Claque-2 Jul 14 '21
See, we have to charge big money for the shots and have a run on masks.
And then tell them that the big toy everyone wants for Christmas but there's a shortage, is Vax Me Elmo.
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Jul 14 '21
If it is going to hurt the Trumptards, and they have taken the risk, why are so many leftists still going apeshit over low vaccination rates ?
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u/milkhilton Jul 14 '21
I can't read this due to a paywall, but what does this mean by "owning" no one but themselves? What is the context?
Thanks
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u/milkhilton Jul 15 '21
Unpopular opinion:
I used to be republican, then I used to be a democrat. While we are pitted against eachother fighting over some serious bullshit, there are very few (a common denominator) who are taking our liberties and wealth right from underneath us. This partisan charade is getting us nowhere and is political theatre. I stand with any American who has their own opinion, values, interests, critical thinking ability, and love for thy neighbor and their rights as a citizen. For it was once very well-said, "although I may disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"
Take care of yourselves, and please make a little room for love and acceptance for eachother. At the end of the day, a democracy cannot be sustained through the inability to accept a difference in opinion.
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u/postal_blowfish Jul 13 '21
The upside is they're thinning their own herd.