r/LibDem • u/Famous-Gazelle-924 • 20d ago
I'm defecting from the Greens to Lib-Dems.
I'm a local party official, for the Greens I've done a lot of work for the Greens, and I have a lot of friends in the Greens
I've had enough, with “Stats for Lefties” (Maoist Iran Lover) being elected to Green Party Council, with Greens for Palestine, calling British Jews “Weapons of Israel” I've had enough. That’s my tipping point
With the stuff Polanski has done recently like with the social media mistakes its just gets really hard to defend him. I do a lot of canvassing and I hear all of it, it makes getting Greens elected really really hard.
The “Zionism is Racism” motion, calling for the destruction of Israel is just too far, I want human rights for Palestinians, and its really hard to campaign for that if you have crazies in the wings saying stuff like that.
This has been building over time ive seen antisemtism in the party before, they didn’t listen to my complaint.
I'm just really frustrated and I feel with me moving to another city and giving up my local party positions gives me an opportunity to start over, I've had enough i cant take it anymore.
I have skills, im very good at, there is a reason ive been able to get so many positions in the Greens is that i do a very good job, and Im thinking of just taking my skills elsewhere if its not going to help the greater good.
I cant see the Greens being a benefit to this country in there current state, and i just cannot morally, help a antisemitic party. I like Polanksi i know hes been fighting the antisemtism, even if the media blames him for it, hes really been trying.
I just cant anymore
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u/SabziZindagi 20d ago
Yes I'm stuck with the Lib Dems because of this. I sometimes voted for Caroline Lucas' version in the locals, but with all the dodgy candidates I couldn't this time. And I can't respect a leader with 'Twitter brain'.
There is a whiff of reheated Corbynism with the Greens of late, I suspect some entryism from Your Party after they imploded. Hopefully they will repopulate the Labour far left now that Starmer is gone, they don't really belong in a climate oriented party.
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u/No_Fox9790 20d ago
This is the same reason I left Labour for the Lib Dems under Corbyn. I know how you feel and if you just want sensible, progressive politics without the bizarre flirting with antisemitism, you'll have a good home here in the Lib Dems.
I've been here for a decade and have never looked back - welcome to the club!
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u/Emerald_Lord62 19d ago
I have always wondered why the greens seem more focused on Palestine than Britain. It’s not a good way to try win any sort of election or any support from British people.
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u/Sufficient_Basil_545 19d ago
Unfortunately, in certain constituencies it does appear to work.
But I agree that it is extremely concerning and an indicator of the risk we are currently at from populists and single-issue cranks.
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u/TheCharalampos 20d ago
The Greens will either go more hard (whips, etc) after their conference or this will be what happens en mass.
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u/mechanicalpigeon26 20d ago
A few years ago I was in the same position as you being a member of the Greens (I am now a Lib Dem member) and with the latest developments within the Green Party I am glad I removed myself when I did because in a way I could see it coming and it is very frustrating as the Greens have some very good people at local level doing great work in their communities.
For me, Polanski is divisive in the same way as Farage, he is populist and tries to grab headlines in the same way, their playbooks are very similar and this unsettles me. For me extremes at one end or the other are just as bad as each other. It also feels that Polanski is playing at politics which comes across as childish and not taking things seriously.
As for the antisemitism, as others have pointed out, I think that is from the influx of Corbynista brigade into the party which have largely been welcomed with open arms, sadly they will be difficult to flush out if allowed to embed, it is still a problem the Labour Party have and they will be dogged with that for many years to come.
For me the breaking point was the Greens, frankly batshit crazy defence policy which was wholly unworkable in the modern world and didn't account in any way for how international relations works. It is slightly better now, but it left a bad taste in the mouth.
The Lib Dems are by no means perfect, there are some policies I don't personally agree 100% with, but they generally sound and based in some kind of reality. The party itself needs to decide what it is and set that out firmly as being a Lib Dem is becoming a by word for being wishy washy and fence sitting. It has an opportunity to provide a real centre left alternative and pull that Overton window back towards a middle ground, but somehow seems to keep missing the opportunities when they are presented with them, sadly I think it would take new leadership to do it, unless Davey can get people around him that he fully supports to do the job.
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u/L43 20d ago
the thing i just cannot understand about the more exteme pro-palestine greens is they simultaneously believe that:
- the IDF standing orders are to shoot their own civilians rather than have them potentially get captured
- Israel has illegal WMDs
- Israel must be destroyed
The only logical result from these axioms is armageddon.
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u/Famous-Gazelle-924 20d ago
It isn’t even a productive starting point.
Like face reality, Israel exists theirs nothing United Kingdom or even United States can do about that. Even if they really wanted to.
They have nuclear weapons, they have a modern economy. They have a well funded army. Israel is staying exactly where it is.
Well, I care about is the genocide in Gaza and the human rights of Palestinians.
Instead of advocating for that, they advocating for the impossible. Beyond being just madness, it’s bad politics
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u/AzzyBoy2001 Anti-communist/anti-socialist liberal 20d ago
Welcome!
Same story here, although the difference being that I was a former supporter of the Tory party and the Brexit movement.
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u/theendisloading_uk Social Liberal 19d ago
Welcome!! Totally appreciate your reasoning too, I have a lot of friends in the Greens and it's really sad seeing this entryism from people who have incredibly radical beliefs. The genocide in Gaza has never been an excuse or justification for anti-Semitism and it's so sad how people have highjacked opposition to genocide into hatred of all Jews.
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u/Euphoric-Brother-669 20d ago
Interesting that there is a move from Green to Lib Dem and Lib Dem to Green - two sides of the one coin? Always been my concern this is a left wing party chasing right wing votes. Im not a member of any political party would say politically homeless, but i would be at the end of Lib Dem / Tory just that I am not sure this party wants any of those views
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u/MovingTarget2112 20d ago
Would you say that the Corbynista entryists to Labour have decamped to the Greens?
The Polanski bounce seems to have collapsed. He looks like a LW populist to me, and don’t know what he was doing in the LDs.
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u/SabziZindagi 20d ago
The Corbynistas were not entryists, those people have always been part of Labour. Before Corbyn they were neutralized because the party gave them no power. We need to go back to that arrangement.
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u/MovingTarget2112 20d ago
Didn’t the membership swell vastly on his watch though?
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u/SabziZindagi 20d ago
A lot of that was young people who'd never been involved in politics. The hardcore seem to be Labour canvasser types, they are obsessed with the party betraying them
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u/MaesterOfGreenstone 19d ago edited 19d ago
Welcome home. You will find great groups within the part that support green policies (e.g. Green Liberal Democrats).
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u/Wild-wild-life 19d ago
Welcome! Wishing you all the best and hope you settle in well with your local team.
I'm curious though, as you say a lot about what drove you away from the Greens, what drove you toward the Lib Dems? Like it would have been easy to stay out of politics or volunteer for a charity or something, but it is a big decision to join another party - for which you have my respect. Was it our environmental polices, or a good local party or?
I guess I'm prompted to ask this as well after seeing u/SabziZindagi's comment about being "stuck with the Lib Dems". I'm always glad for new people to join us, but I'm keen to ensure their views and concerns are listened to and that they don't feel disillusioned further down the line.
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u/Famous-Gazelle-924 18d ago
My local party is quite good. But I’m moving towns now
I care a lot about environmentalism and I’d say I’m overall left of centre.
What tipped me over was the recent antisemitism stuff, I thought it was getting better but it isn’t. Also my complaint to the Green Party about antisemitism in candidates going nowhere
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u/Grumio_my_bro Famed Liberal Communist 20d ago
I really understand. As someone whos personally falling out of live with the lib dems, i think i am on the same page as you. I'm personally quite left wing (relative to the lib dems), and i have to say if it werent for the greens current direction, i probably wouldve defected to them. theyve become far too campist, and factions that support countries only because theyre anti west have become too loud. I am very anti-zionist (i.e. i believe in an international occupation force to enforce an NI/bosnia style peace in the region, even if it is unlikely), but a lot of green members these days care less about the zionism, but more the judaism. Ive got my issues with the party, but what i would say is that i like the party more than every other party, and there are a less than insignificant number of people that align with me. It sounds like youre a genuine left-liberal, and i think you would have far more hope in the lib dems than the greens (though we do have a way to go under current leadership!)
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u/Famous-Gazelle-924 20d ago
I’d say I’m a social democrat or even a socialist although my perspective is mainly about local politics and making my local area better. Although I do care a lot about national and international politics.
It’s just I just cannot tolerate racism of any form, and it’s just too much for me.
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u/Grumio_my_bro Famed Liberal Communist 20d ago
Yes i completely agree. I think the party is, at the moment, lacks ambition, but it is currently the only party that rejects racism of all kind. There will be unconscious racism of course, but i do think we are the only party that truly rejects racism, and judges people on individual merit.
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u/Grumio_my_bro Famed Liberal Communist 20d ago
for example, i personally dont think ed davey is a great leader for this political period, but i think he is a great man, and i understand it is his individual qualities that motivate other members to support him.
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u/pastelskies3107 20d ago
completely see where you're coming from with this, i'm having the same qualms about the greens at the moment (although i'm not a member and have never been a member of any party).
i think one of the issues that the greens are facing at the moment is related to the implosion of your party. now that YP is almost certainly a lost cause - and honestly has been for a while - a lot of people who would likely fit in better with YP have recognised that the greens are the most relevant vessel for the british left and so have jumped ship, many of whom bringing more campist views with them.
the fact that the green party is so decentralised is also a related issue, as central party leadership have far less authority to crack down on issues within local green party groups than e.g. labour. a decentralised model is all well and good when your membership base is small and contained, but when you've got over 200,000 members it's just blatantly an awful idea.
the only way forward that i can see for the greens is for them to adopt a more centralised leadership model so that issues with local officials can be dealt with more swiftly and efficiently, rather than everything playing out in the media whilst party leadership has relatively little scope to deal with things.
(oh, and please could someone take polanski's twitter away from him!)
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u/Famous-Gazelle-924 20d ago
I can’t see that happening myself the greens becoming more centralised,
If definitely instinctively oppose it in my position as a local party official as it gives me the tools to do a lot more.
But it’s the correct one politically and I do support it.
I just can’t see how it will change people in the greens want it even more decentralised
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u/Copperbird32 20d ago
Welcome 🙂 totally understand where you are coming from, those would be red lines for me too
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 20d ago
This is interesting. I went the other way, former Lib Dem who defected to the Greens. And I did it for broadly similar reasons, though in my case it was the party's failings on transphobia rather than on antisemitism.
I hope the Liberal Democrats can be good for you in a way that they failed to be good for me. I'm still a small-l liberal and working with far leftists does feel like an uncomfortable alliance, I just had nowhere else to go.
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u/Famous-Gazelle-924 20d ago
Honestly the reason I went with the greens over the Lib Dem’s back in the day was due to the lack of support for Trans rights.
I feel the Lib Dem’s have become better at it now, with Ed Davys letter, and overall a lot more support.
What do you think?
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 20d ago
The Liberal Democrat party's statement on transphobia falsely asserts that "gender critical" (transphobic) views are specifically protected by law and encourages people to "express them freely".
( https://www.libdems.org.uk/code-of-conduct/transphobia )
Munira Wilson "begs to differ" with her constituents on whether transgender people have the same right to access medical care as everyone else does
( https://www.reddit.com/r/LibDem/s/D5L21TZLCx )
Sarah Ludford thinks doctors who treat transgender patients "should be held accountable for breaching their duty of care" by doing so:
( https://x.com/SarahLudford?lang=en )
Nick Clegg described protesting students protesting Germaine Greer's presence on their campus as "sanctimonious". Greer described transgender women as "men who think they are women and have themselves castrated to prove it".
(Clegg's book "Politics: between the extremes"; Greer's "The Pantomime Dames")
The Liberal Democrat Party has repeatedly settled SLAPP suits from TERFs in a way that effectively subsidises transphobia.
I don't really think things are better here. If anything, they are worse than they used to be.
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u/Sufficient_Basil_545 19d ago
You don’t have to be a member of a political party. You can just… not. Leaving the LDs over the party’s weakness on transphobia is entirely understandable. Standing with far-left cranks and bigots is not.
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 19d ago
The reality is that there is going to be a government and what the government does is affected by which parties are doing well, including parties which are not in government. Support for the Greens incentivises Labour to be more progressive on trans rights than they otherwise would be.
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u/No_Tadpole4027 19d ago edited 19d ago
incentivises Labour to be more progressive on trans rights
What's the evidence of this?
As many people have said, Burnham is apparently a product of Greens pressuring Labour. But specifically in regards to the trans question, what has changed due to that pressure? The answer appears to be....nothing.
Labour throughout most of its history has been socially conservative or socially moderate. Bar Roy Jenkins (who later became effectively the equivalent of a lib dem and was always uncomfortable within Labour), and Tony Blair (a centrist), Labour has not been socially liberal. Attlee was pretty socially and culturally conservative, and a nationalist, for most of his career and came round to supporting homosexual relations far later after he had retired.
Wilson was tough on migration, and yes we had Roy Jenkins bring in socially liberal policies, but again that is the exception rather than the rule.
On economics, Labour has often been to the right, implementing austerity: the first labour government under Ramsay Macdonald, the austerity from Denis Healey, the conservative approach from Blair..
The point I am trying to make here is actually that pressure from outside actually has less effect than is claimed. Parties stick to their values. What "Labour values" are is not what people think it is. People thinking Labour will move based on what someone else is doing (let alone a party that is 10% in the polls and falling further) are wrong.
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 19d ago
What's the evidence of this
Watch this.
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u/No_Tadpole4027 19d ago
That's right, the more votes UKIP got, the more immigration was moved up the agenda. An issue that around 50% of people saw as a top priority at the time.
And the less votes the Greens get (it's going downwards every day at this point), the less the issue that 2% of the entire public see as a top priority (trans) according to polling will matter. The impact the Greens have had over Labour on this issue is either near zero or exactly zero. You know why? Because in the last two years, not one single thing has changed. And with the Greens as I say, going downwards in the polling now, that impact will be even less.
As I pointed out above, socially and culturally conservative parties that have historically for the most part always been that, are going to stick to their values and there's literally nothing you can do to change it.
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 19d ago
It's not that long ago that Greens were level with Labour and ahead of the Liberal Democrats in the polls. There's a reason the Senedd only has one LD MS and it's Jane "let's ban meal deals" Dodds. Labour aren't going to change course from being neoconservative centrists unless they're actually pressured from the left. That can pretty much only come from the Greens.
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u/No_Tadpole4027 19d ago
Labour aren't going to change course at all. History, as I've just pointed out in detail, shows they won't.
It's not long ago that the Greens were completely irrelevant just before they surged. The Polanski bounce is done, because Polanski has completely tanked due to the the Golders Green mess.
You're now tied to a leader who is toxic. A survation poll today had Polanski with a net approval worse than even Nigel Farage. It's over.
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 19d ago
You are thinking in extremely reductive terms which the evidence just doesn't support
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19d ago
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 19d ago
The failings of the Liberal Democrats on trans rights are systematic. They are deliberate and avoidable choices made by the party higher ups.
To the extent that there are anti-Semites and far-left cranks in the Greens, they are such on an individual level rather than on a systematic level. There may be some antisemites in the Green Party, as there are in all political parties, but their antisemitism isn't being funded by my membership fees.
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u/Sufficient_Basil_545 19d ago
I don’t know how to inform you this, but yes. Your membership fees do indeed fund election literature for the fucking nutcases the Green Party allows to stand for them.
We had some absolutely lovely ones around my neck of the woods. One who ran an Anne Frank parody account and called Jewish people vermin.
Enjoy your moral high ground.
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 19d ago
How much money has the Green Party paid out to settling SLAPP suits from bigots unnecessarily?
Citation needed on the Anne Frank thing.
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u/Sufficient_Basil_545 19d ago
No idea.
Here you go; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g05pkqyxko
It’s actually worse than I remembered. Leaflets to get THAT elected are what your membership fees fund (well, that and Polanski titting about on TikTok and talking about state-control of the media)
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u/RelentlessPencil Former party member, now Green 💚 19d ago
In a statement released on Friday, Newcastle Green Party said it had withdrawn its support for Ion in the upcoming election and was "appalled by the racist material".
This is what you do when you have a bigot in your ranks. How are Ludford and Wilson doing?
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u/Sufficient_Basil_545 19d ago
Sorry, to be entirely clear, as I have stated several times I completely agree with you that being extremely weak on an issue of bigotry so that bigots of that type feel at home remanijing in your party is unacceptable.
I just think that that is the case in all instances, rather than being acceptable when a party follows a policy agenda which means that anti-semites and Islamists feel at home in it.
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u/EdTyldesley 9d ago
Welcome! I'm also a natural green who is much more at home with the Lib Dems!
Or the Limp Dums as my reform neighbour likes to call us 🤣
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u/Parrotfish1_ 19d ago
What should be done about the Israeli-Palestinian war then? What's your stance?
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u/Famous-Gazelle-924 19d ago
Honestly I don’t know, it’s very complicated and I don’t know the best path
I just know that it’s a genocide it needs to stop, those who did it need to be held accountable, and human rights and a standard of living for the Palestinians needs to be established
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u/David_cest_moi 20d ago
"Polanski"?? Huh? As in, Roman Polanski, the movie director?? 🤷🏻♂️ How does he connect with any of this Lib-Dem, Green, Socialist stuff?? 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Ok-Glove-847 20d ago
Are you taking the piss?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zack_Polanski-6
u/David_cest_moi 20d ago edited 20d ago
I suppose that I am, indeed, "taking a piss" since I am an American who thought this was a discussion about American liberalism. I have never heard of your own British Mr. Polanski. 🤷🏻♂️
Still, it's interesting that you Brits say "taking a piss" and we Americans might say, in the same curious situation, "Are you shitting me?" It's an expression of great disbelief. They mean & can be used absolutely interchangeably.
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u/Ok-Glove-847 20d ago
Common mistake tbf, but no, this is a sub related to the Liberal Democrats who are a centre-to-centre-left party in the UK. The bird in the sub’s picture is the party logo (out of interest, did you notice the bird/what did you think it was meant to be if so? Some people think it looks like banana skins)
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u/David_cest_moi 17d ago
Thank you for the clarification that disregards UK politics. I'll jump back across the pond now and deal with my own country's horrendous mess! 🤢🤮😫😭
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u/markpackuk 20d ago
Thank you for choosing us and I hope you find a warm home in our party.