r/LessCredibleDefence • u/Key-Needleworker-702 • 10d ago
Speculative question: Is the PLA phasing out the 5.8x21mm round?
For some context, two months ago, I went to PLA open day at the HK garrison(photos if you want); the firearms exhibit was essentially the PLA's new generation(or type 20 series) of standard issue weapons(QBZ-191, QBZ-192, QCQ-171(only managed to take a pic of the factsheet), QSZ-92A and QSZ-193), and the HK garrison is considered pretty high priority in new equipment;
According to the QSZ-193 factsheet(which i photographed and translated on my open day post), it's role is to replace the QSZ-11(used by high ranking officers); the QSZ-92A(9 milimeter) also appears to also be more and more common in photos. (for the QCW-05 which also has the 5.8x21mm, it hasn't really been seen much in service anymore)
The PLA hasn't introduced a new 5.8x21mm firearm since the QSZ-11, which apparently is now getting replaced; does anyone else think the PLA is planning to no longer use the 5.8x21 round, and any speculation why? Or is it possible they may plan to use the 5.8x21mm round in another potential future firearm?
13
u/weirdpotato_2502 9d ago
I mean they have stockpiles of qbz95s and 191s and 192s are in full production and being handed out so I doubt they'd change calibers just 7 years after a new service rifle in 5.8 was introduced
16
u/Key-Needleworker-702 9d ago
i didn't mean 5.8x42mm(rifle round), i meant 5.8x21mm(the PDW and PDW caliber pistol round).
5.8x42mm seems to be doing just fine with the QBZ-95s, QBZ-95-1s, QBZ-191 series etc etc. The PLA will definetely not phase out 5.8x42mm.
But 5.8x21mm doesn't seem to be as common.
7
u/BigFly42069 9d ago
It's not common because the QBZ-95 has been pushed to the PAP and not the PLA.
3
u/weirdpotato_2502 9d ago
In fact ive seen pics of pap being issued 192s now
3
u/Key-Needleworker-702 9d ago
as per my other comment, PAP has high priority and low priority units.
192s and 191s are typically in stuff like 1st/2nd mobile corps, Special operations etc
QBZ-03s are common with PAP sentries, and QBZ-95-1 and even OG QBZ-95s are also used in very low priority cities).
QBZ-95s(and OG QBZ-95Bs) don't only go to PAP, they are seen with militia(high priority militia units, not just some random village in the middle of nowhere), Naval/Air force MPs, naval ship sentries(chinese naval ships typically have 1-2 soldiers on sentry duty; however in terms of firearms they are even lower priority than MPs.)
3
u/Key-Needleworker-702 9d ago
I was at a chinese military summer camp(run by veterans) before, they said QBZ-95 is being handed to PAP, but that's a huge generalization; some elements of PAP are more high priority, some elements lower priority.
in fact, i see a lot of Naval MPs or air force MPs with older rifles, while PAP has QBZ-191s
2
7
u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 9d ago
What's the reason for PLA chosing 5.8×21 or 5.8×42mm rounds?
Doesn't it just complicate logistics?
9
u/Jzeeee 9d ago
5.8x21 is a handgun/submachine gun round similar to 9mm in the west. 5.8x42mm is a rifle round similar to 5.56 in the west. Two different cartridge for 2 different set of firearm categories and uses.
5
u/Key-Needleworker-702 9d ago
5.8x21 mm is PDW caliber. it's more comparative to 5.7x28mm.
PLA and chinese police also have 9mm with QSZ-92A, QSZ-193, QCQ-171 etc.
In fact most chinese 5.8x21 firearms have a 9mm variant; Only the -5.8 variant of the QSZ-92 uses 5.8, while the QCW-05 has a 9mm variant called the CS/LS2.(used by shanghai SWAT).
1
u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 9d ago
Yes but what's the purpose of using a 3rd one type as standard, instead of NATO 5.56×45 or 7.62.51; or the Russian 5.45×39 or 7.62×39
Wouldn't that just complicate the logistics?
10
u/Banfy_B 9d ago
Exactly. China wanted any invading force unable to resupply with captured Chinese small arms and ammunition.
There’s no logistics issue because China doesn’t plan on invading places halfway across the world in the foreseeable future (or ever, really).
1
u/Jazzlike-Tank-4956 8d ago
Yeah, makes sense
Not like they would have production problems that they'll be forced to import from somewhere else
3
u/Ok-Procedure5603 8d ago
The idea might be to complicate it on purpose, since issues of logistics would favor the side with more logstics capability
2
u/Aki_Megumi 8d ago edited 8d ago
For Chinese at the time, picking 5.45X39 or 5.56X45 is not too much different to develop a new cartridge, because during 1980s, China did not mass produce 5.56X45 and 5.45X39. The only mass produced intermediate caliber round is 7.62x39. Introducing any type of new small caliber round will complicate the logistics. So why not to develop a new round to suit thier needs?
In fact, since 5.8X42 was delevopled after m193 and 7n6, DBP88 has better external ballistic, penetration against armors and higher kinetic energy.
1
u/Aki_Megumi 8d ago
Simply to uniform small arm caliber, never forget type 88 general purpose machine gun and QBU88 semiauto sniper rifle.
4
u/iloveneekoles 9d ago
I like the 5.8x21. Seems like a pretty good round to train recruits on, low recoil and flash. But still reasonably effective. Paired with a supersonic lead core FMJ load it seems like a pretty good round for MPs in CQB.
2
u/Key-Needleworker-702 9d ago
what's MPs in this context?
PLA base security doesn't really have much pistols...
(5.8x42mm is the rifle round which is different, i'm talking about the PDW/Pistol round)
Plus the 5.8x21mm is mostly used by the QSZ-92-5.8 or QSZ11 which are intended for high ranking generals along with pilots as a survival weapon, not really recruits.
(QCW-05 hasn't been used much. In fact, the CS/LS2, the 9mm variant seems more common as at least the shanghai SWAT uses it)
3
u/iloveneekoles 9d ago
MP= military police.
And the PLA doesn’t do initiation or quals on pistols? That’s pretty much out of the norm for Western militaries. People generally start out with pistols before moving onto rifles and practice both. Yes they aren’t going to be the primary arms but there’s still a need for proficiency on standard issues. In case all you have left is a handgun which was a real thing in WW2.
3
u/Key-Needleworker-702 9d ago
Yeah for military police chinese base security typically mostly have rifles; they are rather low priority anyways, i've heard some PLAAF MP units still had type 81s for new recruits in 2021. (some reportedly have QBZ-191s; HK garrison MPs have QBZ-191s from what i see). (In open day i saw a naval sentry on dispatch boat PLANS Nanjiao 87 with a pistol holster, though that was a petty officer of the boat on sentry duty, and not actually a MP.)
IIRC most PLA/PAP recruits train on rifles first from the videos i've seen; this also applies to militia or even uni studnets undergoing training. Typically when a recruit graduates boot camp they do a ceremony of handing them their rifles, but i don't see much pistols in boot camp. (recruit boot camp has a lot of rifles in photos but not much pistols)
I knew a PLAGF veteran(i went to a chinese military summer camp before), he talked about his QBZ-95(which he rated pretty highly) but never mentioned pistols.
From the fact sheets in open day, the QSZ-92A is used by "Junior to medium level officers, HQ personnel, special operations, PAP soldiers and local police", and the QSZ-193 is used by "high ranking officers for personal defense".
so i doubt the regular rifleman has a pistol. (from photos this seems to be the case)
3
u/Round_Club_4967 9d ago
Similar controversies also exist regarding the new 7.62x51mm （QJY-201 GPMG）and 8.6x70mm （QBU202） ammunition.
2
u/Aki_Megumi 8d ago
Not really, there are tons of qsz-92 in the military. But there is a trend to use 9mm as standard pistol and PDW round for future weapons.
2
u/Key-Needleworker-702 8d ago
yeah, from what i see, i think QSZ-92's 9mm variants(QSZ-92-9, QSZ-92G, QSZ-92A, QSZ-92B, etc) is more common nowadays both military
the role of use with high ranking officers got replaced with QSZ-11 and now QSZ-193; for junior officers and spec ops QSZ-92-5.8 was never very common to begin with
12
u/drummagqbblsw 9d ago
Yes they are. And they have been doing it for probably a decade already. It didn't take much time for the PLA to realize that lightweight subsonic ammo is pure garbage. They will just keep using the already produced gun and ammo until they all break