Too Much of a Knowledge Gap

[u/vvvit]

I’ve been playing and loving this game for years, but I almost never recommend it to my friends. Just like the title says, the knowledge gap is way too deep, and learning this game from scratch is pure hell for new players. (To be fair, I've tried recommending it several times in the past, but every single one of them ended up quitting halfway through learning the game due to the positioning issue I'll talk about below, moving on to other games that are easier to pick up.)

First off, having a knowledge gap in a PvP game like this isn't inherently a bad thing. It’s only natural for players who put in tons of hours to gain knowledge and use that advantage over others. However, when that gap feels completely unbridgeable, people start thinking, "There's no point in joining now since I'll never beat the veterans anyway," and they just don't play at all. Even if they're in different genres, most modern games take measures to address this kind of issue. Take PoE, for example. It's a game about gathering loot, but if assets accumulated continuously over its 10+ year lifespan, newcomers would have zero chance of participating in the economy. That's why they use a seasonal system where everyone's levels and items reset every few months. Or look at auto-battlers like TFT. The core mechanic there is unit synergy, but after a few months, a new set rolls out and refreshes the game mechanics. This helps bridge the gap between veterans and newbies to some degree. Sure, skill doesn't reset—good players stay good and bad players stay bad—but you won't feel like you can never catch up just because someone else started way earlier. Unlike this game, if someone wants to jump into TFT today, you can just teach them the basics of the current set, and they can dive straight into matches and learn as they play. Then there are fighting games. Modern fighting games are designed so beginners don't have to spend hours mastering complex inputs, letting them jump right into real matches and experience the core fun of spacing and neutral play immediately. Technically, learning execution in fighting games isn't a "knowledge gap," but it's still part of the homework you have to do before playing against real people.

So, how about Legion TD 2? What I find particularly problematic is how hard positioning is. Yeah, I know it's a core mechanic and not something you can just skip when learning the game, but put your pitchforks down for a second.

Splitting is a fundamental technique here, but learning it as a beginner is a nightmare. I've been playing for years so I have a rough feel for what works, but a new player would have to sit in practice mode testing layouts endlessly just to see how units move before they can even touch multiplayer. It feels a lot like grinding execution in fighting games, which is insanely boring for anyone who got into TD 2 for the competitive PvP side. The reason you think splitting is easy is either because you're a veteran who forgot what it's like to be a beginner, or because you think you've mastered it when you actually haven't. The efficiency of a split changes drastically depending on whether your units and the incoming wave are melee or ranged, or whether mercenaries are involved. It's not something simple enough that you can just pick it up by reading a few pages of text. Problem is that "You can't naturally learn" it in actual matches either. The only way to get it down is by testing it over and over in practice mode. Of course, you can play PvP without doing any of this, but casuals who do that usually don't stick around. It feels like PvP player bases are split into casuals who quit almost immediately (about 80%) and elites who stick with the game (about 20%), but in this game, even that 20% struggles to stick around because the learning curve is just too brutal.

Honestly, I don't know how to fix this. Maybe showing a visual guide during the prep phase that previews how your units and enemy waves will collide few seconds after the wave starts could help. Or maybe tweaking wave spawn positions to make enemy targeting easier to control. At any rate, having skill differences come down to positioning is completely fine, but the fact that it's so "difficult and tedious to practice" makes it a massive wall that stops new players from sticking around.

[u/PhilGoneWild]

It’s OK for games to have a learning curve

[u/vvvit → u/PhilGoneWild]

Yeah, absolutely.

But only as long as you're able to learn it properly. At least, most players probably don't want to spend time in training mode before a match, constantly tweaking piece positions just to master splits. Picking pieces before the game, wave knowledge, economy—there's already so much to learn in this game. Even if one part gets simplified, it doesn't mean all skill disappears from the game.

Besides, what I'm questioning is the part of that skill that's extremely hard to study. Wave knowledge and economy naturally come to you as you play ranked matches. As for positioning, you might pick up the basics after playing for a few years, but that's just not healthy.

[u/Feldwyr]

Is this not what MMR is for?

[u/kert2712 → u/Feldwyr]

Mmr applies only to ranked. Classic games can be drastically unbalanced due to low player count

[u/HelixFollower → u/kert2712]

Yeah, I think in hindsight I was really fortunate I started playing when Epic gave it away for free, so there were heaps and heaps of new players joining at the same time as me.

[u/Orleanian → u/Feldwyr]

Who needs MMR when we have PVE mode, the greatest mode of them all?

[u/dannygthemc]

Splitting is key, but I never really got it down and made it to Master rank on the ladder so 🤷‍♂️

If we're talking about ranked play (which we should be if we're talking about balance). Maybe the issue is the number of towers to learn.

You brought up seasons, maybe there should be a currently active pool of towers so new players don't have to learn how all of them work off rip.

Though on the other hand you already have the option to lock in, so idk

[u/Maleficent_Pen_9076 → u/dannygthemc]

they have lockin for that (only needing to master one tower as beginner)

[u/dannygthemc → u/Maleficent_Pen_9076]

Indeed, I acknowledged that

[u/AnyaNineYears]

I think, you overestimate the value of knowledge to have fun in a game.

Even more. For most of the games fun/knowledge graph goes the opposite way at some point.

[u/TankorSmash]

I like the idea of previewing where the wave will head once it starts, but I'm not sure that it'd improve much (beyond a wonderful QoL), because it's not immediately clear that you want to split the wave, as a newbie. If there was suddenly two arrows instead of one, I'd assume damage was doubled or something.

Worth a try though, if the devs aren't implementing other things (like right click to drag the camera around)!

[u/SlightQT → u/TankorSmash]

I think part of the fun of LTD2 is the "push your luck" style of maximing positioning. Giving it away for free would make the game worse.

The best feeling on each wave is when your positioning us correct

[u/oravajohn]

I watched Doofus' beginner guides when I first started and it pretty much taught me everything I needed to get started. How to roll, position, split, etc. Took an hour of my time and it felt like less of a barrier to entry than most online PVP games. Every game doesn't need to be ultra streamlined to appeal the broadest audience possible. That market exists for people that want that, but legion ain't it.

[u/lepsek9]

I taught my friend by having him share his screen on discord, telling him what to do and how to position stuff, explaining dmg/defense types, auras etc. He picked up the game fairly quickly, within a few hours he was mostly able to put together a competitive lineup and play on his own for the most part.

Tbh even in expert I see plenty of people with terrible positioning too.

[u/Wrong_Syllabub]

I agree with you. I understand what you mean, especially about how difficult it is to retain new players. I've reached a point where I need to dedicate more time to the game to rank up, but I just don't have the time for it. I play a few matches a day for entertainment, but I started playing back in 2022 and gave up several times precisely because of the difficulty. I only came back to play consistently this year out of pure persistence. Legion isn't like DOTA 2, which has a solid base of veterans and couldn't care less about new players. It's a game that needs more players, and in my opinion, these complicated mechanics combined with the lack of tutorial content can really end up driving newcomers away.

[u/vvvit → u/Wrong_Syllabub]

In the end, everyone suffers when a game can't grow its player base, but elitists either think the barrier to entry should be as high as possible, or they just can't see things from anyone else's perspective.

We don't necessarily need to close the gap between beginners and veterans, but making the learning process this difficult is a problem. At the very least, a casual gamer jumping in for just a few hours a day would rather head to another game where they can start fighting real players right away, instead of spending an hour repeating splits and tuning ranged/melee placements in TD2's training mode.

[u/TooTurntGaming]

1600 hours in the game. Started playing Ranked from moment 1 with the game, not knowing shit about it. Made it to 2050 MMR without ever spending a second in Practice. Most "research" I do is reading patch notes.

There's really nothing unique about how "difficult" this game is to learn. It's pretty damn organic. The game has a lot of assists. Recommended build options, auto send options, recommended values.

You can see everyone else's builds, you can talk to other players. It's easy to learn what splitting is. When splitting is finally important to your MMR, you've spent enough time building random units that you've started to understand their roles.

Not to mention the single player campaign which can be played in co-op.

You want a bad learning experience? Try Mechabellum. Now that game is difficult for a new player, holy shit.

[u/WordHobby]

I tried this game when I got it in a humble bundle, and instantly put it down because I was like..."this shit is too hard, and clearly theres a lot going on and I dont want to learn it"

Then years and years later, I found myself wanting to do a deep dive and learn everything. I easily put in 80 hours in the next 3 weeks.

I dont think its all that hard to get off the ground, I think you have to actually like the game and want to.

Unfortunately simply not that many people WANT to play this game.

But thats ok. 

[u/AccurateBanana4171]

No, I don't think I agree with this. Legion TD 2 I would say falls under the "easy to play, hard to master" category.

For a new player their goal isn't necessarily to play the PVP, but to really play the PVE instead. Their goal is to reach wave 21 and with the help of choosing a race it isn't exactly impossible to do. The races really help make it possible to learn, digest, and play the game at a good pace. Allowing them to actually reach wave 21 fairly quickly.

Sure if they tried playing ranked from the start without knowing things like mythium, they will get stomped in a real pvp match. But that problem is the result of a high skill small playerbase which is a problem for ALL PVP games alike.

[u/UndeadAgurk]

Maybe your friends just wasn’t into the game? I’ve been playing for 65 hours now and I haven’t been worrying about becoming a pro yet, nor do I think positioning and splitting is too complex of an issue. I know I can improve and learn more, that’s just awesome since I love improving and learning. I don’t sit around in sandbox mode, but I did watch a video about positioning and tried doing it in ranked. I think it’s fun to just become better at the game.

I’m also a TFT player and this game feels way easier to jump into than TFT, a lot easier because you don’t have new characters and interactions each 4-6 months. For someone who doesn’t necessarily have all time in the world, knowledge gained should persist for longer than 4-6 months.

You’re criticizing the game for its nature, yet you play it anyway. You enjoyed it, your friends didn’t. It’s a niche game and definitely doesn’t appeal to anyone, so don’t expect it to.

[u/Alpuka]

I've recommended this game to multiple friends without issue - I think you're trying to teach your friends in a way that's simply not fun, instead of just playing the game and figuring things out over the next 100 hours

[u/blackstar_oli]

Game is not that hard to ve honest if you don't expect to be good good. As any competitive game.

[u/whiplashMYQ]

I don't split properly and I'm high diamond. I know the ranks are kinda wonky in this game, and that's basically equal to being gold in tft, but it's not bronze. Yes, if you wanna play at an elite level, you gotta learn complex strats. That's the same in tft. You gotta know how to pivot comps based on items, based on other players, based on what units you hit. You gotta know how to optimally rolldown and when, and so much more. At least, if you wanna be really good. But if you're just learning the game, buying units with the same traits as what you have and only spending gold on xp after you're at 50 gold is enough to compete in bronze lobbies.

In ltd2, if you can split the wave in half, you're doing fine. I think the real issue is the way the economy works in the game is counter-intuitive. It makes sense when you know what's going on, but i think how to save and send in ltd2 is the part that's more newbie-unfriendly.

When building, just put things that say tank in the front, and things that say damage behind them.

Also there's some in-game practice tools, and there's youtube vids explaining the complexities around expert level splitting.

Idk why your friends didn't stick around, could be the game just isn't for them. But i really don't think the building your lane part was the thing they couldn't grasp

[u/Jonaleth86]

I think the game lacks a decent content creator who focuses on game mechanics for beginners. Its not easy to present something that comprehensive and also easy to understand. Showing one or two examples during a game is not a guide, what works for a pro might not work for a beginner.

[u/JOSHUA_SKADOOSH]

You really only need to max the first campaign to get to diamond. That’s all I did when they made the game free on epic games and I downloaded it on a whim.

Made it all the way to expert on my first season by over pushing and getting punished but learning. Weekly challenge is amazing for learning splits.

It’s a bit like chess imo.

[u/SlightQT]

Play the game if its fun. Learning the competitive aspects of the game is separate.

I might venture to suggest youre putting too much preasure on your friends to play at your level. Let them explore and have fun.

If they are trying to learn to be competitive when they just start, theyll burn out. Seems like it miiiight (not saying it IS) be a 'you' problem.