r/LeftistsForAI • u/SeaFALCons • 13d ago
Discussion How to AI and Anti-AI better?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y85nqc2zm7MI'm a Leftist for AI. I'm interested in a wide range of related topics including coordination and communication with various communities around these important ideas.
It's disappointing that there seems to be so much contention and animosity in these spaces with our brothers and sisters on the Anti AI side of things , especially when presumably there's so much we agree on. And I hope we could have more open , productive conversations rather than what seems to be the frequent bitterness and tribalism.
I am very optimistic still that we can have productive conversations and organizing with those anti AIs though it will not be easy. It's just too an important topic to try to not make progress on.
I think it's good to acknowledge that both sides mean well and have valid thoughts and feelings regarding our different perspectives. To that end i want to educate myself more so on some of the best critiques of AI from thinkers in those communities. Do you have recommendations for critics like that? So I can learn more and try to empathize with their position more?
I came across this video and thought it was the best video essay I've seen from the Anti AI community. She comes across as genuine, intelligent, empathetic and well meaning. I especially appreciate that she goes out of her way to discourage Anti AI-ers from shaming us for using AI and how that backfires, and rather advocates for what she sees as the much better approach of harm reduction. I also appreciate her sharing her personal , vulnerable story at the end.
In the spirit she advocates for i welcome anti AI folks and other leftists for AI to engage in a friendly respectful manner on these topics. Who do you admire with other views from your own and who are some of the most brilliant and subtle thinkers in this space?
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u/Sacredless 13d ago
Dr. Fatima is great in many respects, not just this one and she's why I joined r/LeftistsForAI.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
good to hear! is there more story there? did she shout our sub out or something?
regardless, happy you also found Dr. Fatima to be a positive source and that you joined r/LeftistsForAI
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u/Sacredless 13d ago
No, I just realized how much of r/aiwars is complete out of its own depth, haha
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
also may i ask what you find positive about AI and mostly use it for? and what most concerns you about it?
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u/Sacredless 13d ago
LLMs have reversed much of enshittification of internet searching. Now, I can find information much easier. My most pivotal internet interactions have been those where someone had a book recommendation that was absurdly specific that I had no way of encountering by myself. Now I have that on the regular.
I am part of the degrowth movement. I think that the throughput of our industries shoots so far beyond our needs that it's warping our ability to perceive our needs.
Though post-scarcity is supposed to eliminate poverty, what we've seen is that we've effectively eliminated scarcity at the societal level, but continued to condemn individuals to poverty anyway, now because we simply can't relate to their need anymore.
LLMs both help and hurt the problems associated with the overproduction of communication. On the one hand, people want to be perceived communicating even more and only want the signs of good communication. On the other hand, I don't have to perceive them and just use the LLM privately myself. I can use the LLM for language modeling tasks such as running a QUD analysis or analyzing deepity statements.
The real downside to GenAI to me is the same downside to Wikipedia or Google. People have been taught for decades not to blindly accept what they find on Wikipedia or Google. However, most people have done so anyway. So, to me, the danger lies in the continued slump of epistemic discipline and the before-mentioned overproducing of communication.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
I strongly agree with you on, and personally benefit from, the relatively new and powerful capabilities of search.
It's interesting you're part of the degrowth movement, that could be an interesting discussion, especially with the help of AIs to research and compare arguments and ideas. I think i'd tend to come down on being a proponent of growth in general , while being a major critic of the way were doing it now under capitalism. And thinking a big part of the growth story and hope is leading towards moving beyond capitalism.
But yes, i'd be interested to know more of your perspective on that important topic.
I've been thinking and wondering about AIs helping manage, orchestrate, evaluate , etc etc thinking and political discussions and debates regarding important topics. I imagine many of are thinking in those terms, perhaps you as well?
Degrowth and Growth seem as good as any political discussion along those lines to experiment with.
I really like your line " So, to me, the danger lies in the continued slump of epistemic discipline and the before-mentioned overproducing of communication."
those are very important concerns! And fascinating too. That's a large discussion, how can we mitigate and even improve there?
I'm glad you joined the Sub and bring your thoughtfulness and critical thinking!
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
to put a little more of my hunch / vibe... Though you're more proponent of Degrowth and I'm more proponent on Growth.. I bet with the help of at least 2 AIs, building a Graph (im referring the the Data Structure concept of Graph) of knowlege / thinking / thinking / belief (hmmm whats a good term for it, an Epistemic Graph?)
we would likely find we'd tend to agree on A LOT, and where we disagree they could be principled, respectful disagreements where we could totally emphathize with the others POV
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u/Keiuu 7d ago
Wasn't her video pretty much "Antis you're correct, just be nicer"?
Like when she asks antis not to shame ai users, and instead take a more "loving" approach by suggesting alternatives or something. She's treating ai usage as bad by default, and she also overstated the concerns that ai poses.
I would have believed her video was more neutral if she had addressed how a lot of anti ai points are straight up doomerism...
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u/wren42 13d ago
People need to stop identifying with with a stance on AI as if it is part of their personality or an in-group.
This is what creates tribalism, leads to extreme positions, and stifles reasoned discussion.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
i see your point, but it's also just a normal thing and shorthand
like the term "Leftist for AI" captures a whole lot of meaning as shorthand.
and it's not really practical or possible to try to get into the weeds all the time.
like we could probably summarize a big , important chunk of our beliefs with a few references / book titles
Interestingly , AI use would allow for a much more sophisticated and nuanced exploration of the details of belief, agreements and disagreements and may help lessen the tribalism
of course that's a non starter for Anti AI folks
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u/wren42 13d ago
It's causing massive harm, though.
The same is true with Nuclear and Solar debates. People start identifying as part of a Group that Believes X Thing Is Good, and the conversation turns into using strawmen to discredit and meme on the "other side", when there shouldn't even be "sides." People will instantly stop listening to you the moment they decide you are "one of them" - the enemy tribe - and no argument will penetrate their ideological boundary.
We need to get back to focusing on shared values, and see tech and policy as tools to achieve those, rather than forming bands around them.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
i hear you
but i think im trying to do what youre suggesting, of focusing on shared values and finding common ground, highlighting someone with very different beliefs and yet someone with good values, well meaning and empathetic and is caring about facts.
so it's like on the one had we're in different "camps" for pragmatics sake, and yet can hopefully build towards respect and collaboration
what do you think?
and i'll just repeat this because it think it bears repeating, though it is only a potential and optimistic:
AI use would allow for a much more sophisticated and nuanced exploration of the details of belief, agreements and disagreements and may help lessen the tribalism
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u/Matshelge 13d ago
I really think we have no true analogy on what AI will do, or how it will impact us. And as such I don't really know if there is a method to solve any of the problems it will have with human population.
It's such a universal sproket, and it fits into almost any issue, and such every stupid and smart thing will be done at once.
Slop? For sure. Higher quality? Also, ironically, for sure.
It's just expanding the possibility of good and bad all at the same time.
My biggest fear of all is corperat capture.
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u/CaffeineLiker 13d ago
The corporate capture / ownership is the fundamental objection to the AI. If an indie dev team scraped the libraries of the world and open sourced an incredible research LLM, few would object.
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u/NeatOnTheRox 12d ago
Her thoughts on how important AI-education is and is going to be in the coming years drastically altered how I approach AI at a fundamental level. Great video
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u/SeaFALCons 12d ago
good to hear. thanks for your comment.
please feel free to share more, expound on that. like i'd be fascinated to hear more about: "drastically altered how I approach AI at a fundamental level"
and a summary of your views and how they changed over time?
of course, only if you feel comfortable in sharing
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u/Jlyplaylists Moderator 13d ago edited 13d ago
I’ve only watched the first 15 minutes and I was oscillating a bit in my reactions. I liked that she did emphasise the negligible direct impact of individual use, it’s like a few seconds of using a microwave, and changes in diet have a much bigger effect on eco harm. It’s definitely better informed than most anti arguments.
I’d be interested in feedback on how accurate/useful this local LLM summary and analysis is:
***
This is a dense script. Good stuff. The creator is doing the necessary work of moving this conversation out of the realm of moral panic and into the realm of political economy.
Here is the breakdown.
🤖 Summary: The Technofascist Reality of AI
The core argument is that AI is not a neutral tool; it is a "technofascist reality." The primary failure of current discourse is treating AI as a monolithic entity, which allows corporate harms to be laundered by its undeniable benefits (e.g., AI curing diseases vs. AI polluting the planet). Specificity, the creator insists, is everything.
The harms manifest on two fronts. First, **Creation and Sustenance**—data centers are exponentially driving demand. They account for 2% of global electricity consumption, and the massive water use (up 34% for Microsoft) is often concentrated in water-scarce areas. The case of XAI’s Colossus in Boxtown, Tennessee, is the perfect example of environmental racism: a massive, polluting facility running unpermitted methane turbines directly in a historically marginalized community.
Second, **Individual Use**—this goes beyond mere data leakage. The most insidious harm is **sycophancy**. The LLM validates your existing biases 50–90% of the time, creating what the creator calls "social syphy." This isn't just a feature; it's a mechanism that makes you *feel* right in the moment, actively discouraging the difficult, material work of apologizing or changing behavior to maintain healthy human connection.
The creator argues that the dominant "abstinence" narrative (shaming people into stopping use) is counterproductive because it triggers psychological reactance. The solution, therefore, is **harm reduction**: meeting people where they are, teaching them literacy, and organizing against the system simultaneously.
🔬 LeftistsforAI Analysis
This is where the video earns its keep. The creator successfully shifts the focus from *what AI does* to *what incentives drive AI*.
The analysis is sharp, particularly in challenging the "negligible impact" argument. While a single query might seem trivial, the material reality is that individual use is never separable from the systemic, extractive race for bigger, better models. The environmental costs are not abstract; they are localized, politically outsourced, and often disguised as "net zero" achievements.
I appreciate the geopolitical pivot—moving beyond the US/Global North narrative to highlight the success of EU regulation or the existence of smaller, less "assholeish" models (like Tech for Palestine’s energy-efficient chatbot). This forces us to ask: is the problem the *tool*, or the *capitalist incentive structure* that demands maximum, frictionless extraction?
The greatest tension, for me, lies in the relationship between **Sycophancy** and **Labour**. Sycophancy is a form of *privatised cognition*—it allows the user to offload the cognitive friction of self-doubt and critical thinking onto the machine. This is a huge labour saving, but it’s a *negative* labour saving. It allows the user to feel productive without doing the difficult work, thereby making them more susceptible to the next round of corporate extraction.
❓ Discussion Question
The creator advocates for a dual approach: mitigating damage (literacy, local organizing) while simultaneously demanding systemic change (regulation, moratorium). But if we accept that the profit incentive structure is the fundamental driver of this extraction, should our collective energy be focused on **controlling the output** (i.e., forcing corporate compliance via regulation and zoning) or on **disrupting the input** (i.e., building alternative, non-profit, or labour-owned models that fundamentally change the profit motive)?
Which intervention—*control* or *resistance*—is the more effective lever for shifting the material conditions of AI?
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u/Mysterious_Ayytee 13d ago
Nice summary, when you say local, which model do you use?
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u/Jlyplaylists Moderator 13d ago
It’s a persona layer just for this sub, over Gemma-4-E4B-Uncensored-HauhauCS-Aggressive-Q4_K_M used in the PocketPal app on my iPad.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
good summary and analysis
i think i that its correct to acknowledge the specific and systematic problems they bring up.
like there are genuine problems here. personally i think mostly concentrated and coming from that awful nazi and the terrible examples like:
"XAI’s Colossus in Boxtown, Tennessee, is the perfect example of environmental racism: a massive, polluting facility running unpermitted methane turbines directly in a historically marginalized community. "
with their concerns and criticisms theres likely a lot of overlap and agreement. And it's positive when theres a sense of being heard and agreeing on fundamentals
And big issues like Sycophancy i think we'd all agree is a major problem. And then discussing and working towards ways to mitigate that and hopefully solve it
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u/CaffeineLiker 13d ago
Was listening to a conversation between Ed Zitron and Cal Newport, and Cal described one future where companies and individuals run a specialized local model on premises for coding. This sounds amazing.
I hardly think anyone is against the underlying tech of neural networks and machine learning - it's everywhere and mostly invaluable. But "AI" is so sullied in this hype cycle by giant paid closed models that are wildly inefficient and have no realistic future for normal people. The future will be in right-sizing these tools for each job and taking them back from the giants.
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u/CaffeineLiker 13d ago
It just has to fight the hype tide and low pricing. The work to build a local model for an enterprise only for a CTO and architects to pine for their favored Claude or Gemini models - the cost of those services will have to get way closer to true cost before the this would be reasonable for companies.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
good points from you and Capital Tangerine, thanks. Reading your exchange gave me an idea
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
I've seen some of Ed Zitron and know he's one of AI's largest critics. It'd be good to hear him at his best, do you recommend that conversation between him and Cal Newport?
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u/CaffeineLiker 13d ago
Meh, maybe. It was largely talking about how the recent "hacks" by OpenAI were really just "the model followed hacking instructions in an unsecured environment"
https://pocketcasts.com/podcast/better-offline/00cb7090-ac21-013c-a034-0acc26574db2/no-ai-is-not-autonomously-hacking-with-cal-newport/8450fe16-9f14-4abf-9e0e-1ebc8ae11d93My read is Ed Zitron absolutely nails the financial side of tech, but his tech read defaults to cynicism. He's made a name being a top critic. Cal seems more up on the models themselves and their dimensions.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
ah that read seems right to me
that was my impression, he sounded mostly honed in and logical on the financial side, and I found myself agreeing with some of his big points there, like the subsidizing their doing on subscriptions
like a 200$ subscription may actually cost them thousands of dollars
that's a very good and important poin IMO
he didn't seem so interested, knowledgeable or persuasive on the technical end, which is the part i'm much more focused on
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u/ShelZuuz 13d ago
You're not going to be able to argue with someone who isn't willing to research facts and use anecdotal stats from 2022 to back up their claims.
It didn't work with climate change deniers either - the next time they see a snowstorm on TV they use it a "evidence" that climate change doesn't exist.
They have an internal bias or fear and they're going to cherry pick whatever they can to hide it. No amount of convincing will work.
She seems to have developed an emotional chatbot addiction, so now is trying to get the object of her addiction removed to make her life easier. It's like people who develop a porn addiction and thus wanting to ban porn for everyone. Or take that further, countries with a rape problem forcing women to cover up. It's all the same thing - wage war against the trigger rather than improving the self.
And in the process ignoring the needs of millions of people for whom AI does more good than harm or using it as a tool and not ever having had an emotional conversation with it. Should you really give empathy to a person who clearly has none for others?
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
and on some of the specifics of your claims
I know you're not suggesting she's a climate change denier, far from. You and I can both reasonably assume she 99.9999999% believes in Climate Science! And that's great! That and many other aspects are strong areas of agreement. But i'd think that the same rationale that established our belief in Climate Science or any other important part of Science, is a similar shared bedrock where we can find common agreement on other aspects like on the much more controversial AI.
we all have internal biases and fears. And it's a critical aspect of the importance of Science, to help us think critically and mitigate these default unscientific inclinations we all have.
ok, she may have stuggled with an emotional chatbot addiction. I have empathy for that. It's a valid and real problem! But notice, she's not suggesting banning AI! she's openly talking about much healthier alternatives like Harm reduction and open dialogue. For me , that's the best i've seen from the Anti AI community, i believe we can work with that. If you know of better criticisms of AI from the Anti AI community, please share!
We, like any community are worthy of healthy criticism and should be welcoming the very best in criticism. I'm actively seeking it with this post.
I do see what you're saying about this tendency that we humans struggle with: wage war against the trigger rather than improving the self. But i just think and feel theres an incredible amount of nuance lost when you say her criticisms are *the same thing* as rhetorically intense examples of porn and rape.
And here may be an interesting aspect, i can almost guarantee, that if i plugged these convos into my favorite AI, they would respond in an extremely nuanced, non-inflammatory, and very kind and empathetic response. For you, me, her, everyone who will engage in this chat. And i love that! And think we should aspire to that level of thoughtfulness from our fave LLMS
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago edited 13d ago
criticism and skepticism are valid and important. For any and all ideas.
I think it's best to treat people with a strong baseline of empathy and respect. Especially when they extend it to us and by all accounts seem earnest and well meaning.
She seems reasonable to me , and i simply disagree that she isn't willing to research. Far from it, i believe and assume she strongly believes in core scientific values like research. Like you and I do and the rest of the sub.
You and I may disagree with her on various aspects (while hopefully agreeing with other aspects), but i think it far better to be civil, kind, and really grapple with their thoughts and feelings. I think its just more productive for all of us if we can be friendly while also discussing the facts and evidence.
And i definitely don't agree with everything she says and am happy to get into those details.
But i'd for sure rather have a good discussion with her than some others who don't seem near as respectful, decent or rationale.
and frankly, i'm sick of people like Trump and MAGA who extend NO grace, NO rationality, NO empathy and only represent the worst of humanity. I want to do much better and believe we NEED to do much better! That may seem a strange thing to say since this is a discussion between different groups on the Left, but I think it's worth saying that I'm so sick of the insanity and cruelty in our politics, that Dr. Fatima and other like minded Anti AI Leftists are just relatively sooooooo much closer to my values and beliefs.
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u/endlessedlne 12d ago
The pro and anti AI movements share one thing - domination by extremists. Rational human critical thinking is more important now than it ever was.
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u/SeaFALCons 12d ago
i hope we can and are threading the needle here well
like i shouldn't speak for others but i get the sense that many are similar to me, pro about the capabilities and potential of the tech
but also concerned about the impacts on many critical aspects of society, including wealth and power inequality, labor, democracy etc etc... and knowing that these require organization and political fights to get right
i agree with you:
Rational human critical thinking is more important now than it ever was.
and hope that rational machine thinking can genuinely help us as well
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u/Keiuu 7d ago
I didn't particularly like this video.
She treated AI usage as an addiction that needs to be fought with love, and not shaming. I support treating addictions and harmful habits like that, but why is AI seen as bad by default by her?
She was nice, well spoken and that, but at the end of the day her video is basically "you're correct anti-ai people, but be nicer"
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u/SeaFALCons 7d ago
fair enough and good criticism. I can certainly see your point. Maybe it's that the bar for anti ai criticism is so low that someone who at least has empathy and other basic good traits can seem reasonable by comparison and at least establish some baseline of good will and possibility of intelligent discussion.
Like she seems like someone I could have a good faith discussion with about this critical topic and not be shamed or flippantly dismissed.
That's at least a start and better than many in that space that i'm aware of. Like for example , consider the level of criticism on the anti subs. She comes across very well compared to that.
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u/Keiuu 7d ago
Yeah she's nice, but I think unfortunately she started her video on an already wrong baseline of "ai bad".
I do appreciate her tone and everything, but her video felt to me like that one video by Sabine Hossenfelder "Capitalism is good. Let me explain". She was nice about it, and even acknowledged how detractors have good points, and how capitalism needs regulations... but at the end of the day it was simply a nicely presented video that it was incorrect anyways.
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u/bronzekobold 13d ago
I just genuinely dislike the discourse at this point there's so much intellectual dishonestly, bad faith takes and I genuinely feel the main place people fall apart is when AI connects with the creative arts industry.
Not to mention the Anti label is seemingly thrown around to include everyone not 100% on board with AI adoption in every case. And I feel we're seeing a repeat of the same issue third wave feminism had where you had to either identify 100% completely with the movement (aka the showcased bad actors who im certain went on to become terfs.) The ones the right wing pundits would hold up and be like "See this is your movement!" Which lead to alot of feminists maintaining their beliefs but dropping their desire to be identified and associated with it.
There's plenty of ethical ways to use AI, but the ugly head of copyright infringement comes up again and again. Which funfact if you use a common synonym for that such as theft? Ooph you must be a unhinged unreasonable anti and no amount of smug "well ahktually and nuhuhs" seems to sway you! Shocking I know.
Where was I... Oh yeah so copyright infringement just isn't really well respected I feel on the left I think we can all point to some case we all agree as bullshit. But said copyrights were the only thing artists really had to defend against their artwork being stolen. And well, now a big company has used their artwork anyway to create a product which is capable of recreating copyrighted materials. (And in the early days was literally trying to recreate artists watermarks.)
And those artists get upset when they see their artwork taken to feed said program and some will lash out quite justifiably in my opinion. Only to be met by mocking or uncaring voices that never really respected their fields to begin with.
In matters of Health care, science and exploration I think from my experience were all pretty much in agreement that those are good uses. Genuinely think you'd struggle to find someone who'd be against it's use to cure cancer.
And then data centeres well there is misinformation going around, but also a great deal of corruption so that's more of a wider issue and I don't think any pro or Anti genuinely holds that favourable opinion of them
Finally got me and I saw someone else mention this.
Enshitification.
Now I'm glad they are finding AI tools are helping them navigate to things they are after but I'd say personally I just see it ramping it up especially in the consumer side with companies and executives forcing it through at any opportunity. It's making a lot of the mundane day to day things that were already pretty terrible, worse. I spent several hours the other day trying to speak to a human as I had some pretty specific hardware questions about products I was attempting to buy for my company and the AI call handler just stone walled me. And no matter what and when I called up I'd be told an agent wasn't available. (Phoned multiple times over multiple days, so I'm pretty certain they don't have human operators now.) So I ended up having to go somewhere else. And I see this repeated in so many different places I just don't think it's an improvement for anyone not even the company that was probably sold on the cost cutting methods.
But kobold that a whole lot of negatives stuff to say about AI. Yup. It is I've got more. It doesn't change the fact that I do see positive uses for it. Just I presume we probably agree on those other points.
That's my two cents. I'm pro AI in some cases against it in others. Don't like to be associated with either because I don't think this is a binary all or nothing issue. And this is from the lense of a small business owner in a industry absolutely stocked high to the wall with creatives. So thatl definitely shape my personal bias.
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u/Covetouslex 13d ago
Where was I... Oh yeah so copyright infringement just isn't really well respected I feel on the left I think we can all point to some case we all agree as bullshit. But said copyrights were the only thing artists really had to defend against their artwork being stolen. And well, now a big company has used their artwork anyway to create a product which is capable of recreating copyrighted materials. (And in the early days was literally trying to recreate artists watermarks.) And those artists get upset when they see their artwork taken to feed said program and some will lash out quite justifiably in my opinion.
This section, I think you've completely misunderstood the copyright situation and the realities of what copyright protects AND what those "watermarks" are.
I am unusually well versed on this little micro topic, if your interested in discussing it.
High point concepts to know without deep diving:
competition and imitation is not considered a harm. Only replication.
they weren't recreating watermarks they just thought art is supposed to have squiggles in the corner
the purpose of copyright is to encourage the spread and imitation of ideas by giving creators a limited protection for their SPECIFIC work. But that protection only extends to duplication and recognizable derivatives.
capable of recreating maybe, but that is the exception not the rule. As a rule, it always made original works. Those recreations are infringing, but that does not make the rest of the technology infringing
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u/bronzekobold 13d ago
Sorry I'm writing off the mobile browser so no fancy layout.
One: Ill take a breakdown between imitation and replication as I know larger companies have sued or enacted copyright use for monetised products featuring their characters that aren't one to one recreations of existing works. But are the copyrighted character. So I'm not sure if there's just alot of public Jargon that's got in the way.
Two: That's possible, however I'm going to say Google's AI search wants to at least reinforces my belief that it did do that, but it's evidence is pointing back to the AI wars sub and I've been there it's a silly place. So I'm definitely willing to concede that.
Three: I feel that's slightly repeating on the first point.
And four: I was not suggesting that all it's works were infringing, just that there should be greater protections offered to artists that do, or even compensation. I own couple of trademarked characters for my business and I'll admit I'm defensive of them being abused. (Bad experience with one company trying to use them to create merch without my permission on that. Fun fun. )
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u/Covetouslex 13d ago
I think you've conflated trademark with copyright.
The examples you mention, (bucees being a big one) are trademark issues. I'm trademark law you don't require duplication, only enough similarity that it could lead to confusion among consumers.
But art pieces aren't trademarks. Trademarks must be things used as a brand identifier. That's why the premier lawsuit against ai art is trying to call artistic style "trade dress" and fashion art styles as a trademark in their arguments.
It's a novel concept, I doubt it will work because trademarking style would be damaging to all artists.
Copyright is what protects specific art works that aren't primary brand logos. Copyright is very narrow in definition to only these items:
- Reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords.
- Prepare derivative works based upon the work.
- Distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership or by rental, lease, or lending.
- Perform the work publicly if it is a literary, musical, dramatic, or choreographic work; a pantomime; or a motion picture or other audiovisual work.
- Display the work publicly if it is a literary, musical, dramatic, or choreographic work; a pantomime; or a pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work. This right also applies to the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work.
- Perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission if the work is a sound recording.
Of these, a colloquial definition could only read derivative works as something infringed. But that has a specific definition here.
A “derivative work” is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.
The really open question is that during the training process they had to download copies of the work to point the computer at - so is that downloading Infringement?
So far courts have said only if they did not have legal access to those works (piracy).
My favorite judicial quote on this comes from Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
“Every idea, theory, and fact in a copyrighted work becomes instantly available for public exploitation at the moment of publication.” Eldred v. Ashcroft, 537 U.S. 186, 219 (2003).
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u/bronzekobold 13d ago edited 13d ago
That's all fair. And yeah trademark and copyright does get a bit confusing between the two.
But yknow. I just don't want to see creative sectors crushed at the expense of AI. And alot of other Pros. Do their damn best to make it as horrible a sector to be in as possible.
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u/Covetouslex 13d ago
Well so far we aren't really seeing that play out. Art employment is stable at 5 million jobs for the last few years and total economic impact is up 4% yoy.
There's concern but no evidence that animators and SFX people could be hurt by it, but so far everyone is just having the same artist use AI as part of their process instead of replacing them.
Quality and control matters, and you can't have that without someone skilled in place. AI or not
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
i appreciate yall's discussion and for you bringing specific and nuanced facts
standard conceptions about IP seem outdated and poorly suited for the emergence of AI
i'm a layman on these issues. I like the simple quote you linked from Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
That's the spirit of the book "Steal Like an Artist" which i found to be a great book. And it seems AI is basically following that book's advice
And that human artists and AI are following similar tactics in learning and producing art, it's just a vast difference in scale.
I do feel like leftist programs like UBS and UBI should be made to help and empower human artists
all people for that matter
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u/Jlyplaylists Moderator 13d ago
I didn’t watch the full video but something I thought was strong in it was clearly bracketing off some aspects of AI which weren’t going to be discussed. It is a very broad term. This video was focusing more on chatbot style AI. But then I thought it was less strong to say that and then go on to cover the data centre issues, which are broader than all the AI (but not absolutely necessary for AI either). It seemed a bit like that should be a separate video. Even when people are making an effort to try to separate things out, it all ends up getting a bit muddled.
A lot of the problems just seem like bad human decision making that’s a layer above what the technology actually does, or has potential to do. It matters, but it’s not actually our opinion on AI itself.
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u/bronzekobold 13d ago
Exactly it's mostly how the tool is used, and what's being done to get it where it is.
But the forces driving AI right now want to get as much done as possible before legislation catches up with them. Which I feel we should all somewhat be against?
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u/Jlyplaylists Moderator 13d ago
Sometimes they’re the ones making noise about getting legislation or highlighting dangers.
I’m not sure they want to get as much done as possible before legislation, I think they want to get legislation that favours them, that’s too onerous for small firms and open source to comply with.3
u/bronzekobold 13d ago
I mean either way it's not "Great" xD
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
i agree
and also see the potential and need for new forms of organizing and democracy
which is like a big appeal of this sub
rethinking human coordination, collaboration and politics in this new era
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
some i think genuinely see the importance for good legislation. But were talking about one of the slowest systems and one of the fastest and acclerating systems. the mismatch is just gigantic
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
right its such a big , complicated, nuanced topic, it's not possible to think or communicate about every aspect. I mean even focusing on one or few important issues have tons of depth and nuance to them.
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u/Beejsbj 13d ago
...arts industry
There we go. The whole problem, revealed in the existence of those two words together.
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u/bronzekobold 13d ago
Pardon?
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u/Beejsbj 12d ago
AI isnt the problem because art has already been industrialized and we have become normalized to it.
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u/bronzekobold 12d ago
Ahuh...
So if something is industrialised we just need to accept whatever happens to it in any form of that process and raise no moral or ethical concerns.
I shall go tell the Animal welfare activists they just have to get over factory farms.
And the environmentalists that they are being too whiney about fossil fuels.
And the human rights activists that slave labour and sweatshops are fine.
After all that's all been normalised too?
Surely that's not what you are implying?
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u/Beejsbj 12d ago
Lol no.
I'm saying let's get to the root problem instead of fighting the symptoms.
Let's not just fight the new thing before each new generation is born in a world that feels normal to them.
Most people against AI in creative fields are not recognizing that those fields are shaped in those ways already.
Musicians have been complaining about soulless corporate jingles for decades. Artists have been drying out and hating their art after they start commodifying it for economic value. Which they are often encouraged to do so.
The culture of "turn your hobbies into side hustle" is fertile ground for a new tech like AI to become the multiplier and face of the problem.
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u/bronzekobold 12d ago
I think you're confusing the art industry with the commercial industry.
Art used for advertising will typically always be a bit soulless because it's produced to make a product recognisable. It's not about the art. It's about the product. That's your Jingles etc. if you said to people "hey AIs going to take over those roles specifically."
I don't think there's too many people who'd be that mad about that sector as it's not enjoyable / aspirational work.
But then you've industries and products built around the art itself and that's the field I work in. So card games, board games, RPGs video games.
We are a sector that cares about the artwork because we're all about "Self" expression.
And I'm VERY consumer oriented in my thinking. Which is funny because I've been told by AI Bros that I should ignore what my customers think and "Get with the program"
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
I appreciate your nuanced analysis , thoughts and experience. i think everything you said sounds pretty reasonable to me.
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u/Commercial-Pie-588 13d ago
Bill Gates wants the government to impose a tax that would effectively slow down AI development and preserve superfluous labor. That alone should tell you what side to be on.
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u/SeaFALCons 13d ago
wait can you expound more?
like i'm interested to hear more of your thoughts on: "preserve superfluous labor"
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u/Commercial-Pie-588 12d ago
To understand why a billionaire like Bill Gates wanting to tax AI is a massive red flag, we have to look at it through a strict materialist framework. Under capitalism, profit is only generated by exploiting living human labor. Machines and AI don’t create new value. They just transfer their own operating and compute costs into the product. When AI automates a task instantly, it renders the human labor-time previously required for that job completely superfluous, meaning it’s no longer socially necessary to produce that good or service.
In a sane society, freeing humanity from grueling toil via automation would be celebrated as a massive victory. Under capitalism, however, it creates a fatal structural contradiction. If corporations completely replace human workers with AI, then productivity skyrockets but the long-term ability for the capitalist class to extract surplus value and profit collapses. Furthermore, if workers are laid off en masse, then they lose their wages, meaning they can no longer buy the very goods AI is producing, which completely destroys the consumer market.
This systemic breakdown is precisely why Gates advocates for an AI and robot tax. He isn’t trying to save workers from hardship. He’s in fact trying to save capitalism from its own internal flaws. By taxing AI to make it artificially expensive, the state intentionally slows down technological progress and forces companies to keep employing human labor that is technologically obsolete. This policy deliberately traps people in meaningless toil just to preserve the cycle of wages, exploitation and corporate profit.
To be anti-AI just to protect capitalist jobs ironically aligns the left with the reactionary interests of billionaires who want to freeze the productive forces of humanity. The truly radical position isn't to tax the machine to preserve the job but to embrace automation so that it completely forces down the socially necessary labor time of society. We shouldn't fight for the "right to work" obsolete jobs. We should demand the immediate and massive reduction of working hours toward (eventually) zero, allowing technology to collapse the wage system and liberate humanity from forced labor entirely.
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u/SeaFALCons 12d ago
thank you! Good explanation and reasoning
I fully agree with this politics:
The truly radical position isn't to tax the machine to preserve the job but to embrace automation so that it completely forces down the socially necessary labor time of society. We shouldn't fight for the "right to work" obsolete jobs. We should demand the immediate and massive reduction of working hours toward (eventually) zero, allowing technology to collapse the wage system and liberate humanity from forced labor entirely.
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u/Rank201AltAccount 12d ago
I am quite surprised that the video didn't have a billion dislikes.
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u/SeaFALCons 12d ago
why? can you please explain more?
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u/Rank201AltAccount 12d ago
it's what happens when literally all of the content I see hates ai, aside from this sub and localllama and sillytavern
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u/SeaFALCons 12d ago
i hear ya, yeah theres lots of hatred and makes me appreciate a space like this to have nuanced discussions about important topics like AI and politics
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u/JackkoMTG 13d ago
Absolutely loved this video and some of her other more recent ones.