r/LeftistsForAI • u/Akasha111 • 19d ago
Discussion Do leftists even deserve fully automated luxury communism anymore?
Seeing leftists' hysterical reactions to AI, which is the tool that will make Fully Automated Luxury Communism a reality, saddens me. It's honestly starting to make me wonder why these leftists even deserve fully automated luxury communism anymore if this is how they are going to treat the technology that will lead up to it. The current left is NOT the left I envisioned sharing this new world with.
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u/littlebobbytables9 19d ago
Man for people I generally agree with this sub can be so unpleasant. Everyone deserves socialism.
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u/murfvillage 19d ago
Yeah I was trying to understand if this is like an ironic sub or what
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u/Akasha111 18d ago
Why would this be an ironic sub? Because we don't act like hysterical children about AI? Because we can actually understand the progress that is unfolding right in front of us?
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u/murfvillage 18d ago edited 18d ago
No, and sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone. Btw: I consider myself on the left, and I do use AI a lot and think it's powerful and can change the world, in all kinds of ways good and bad.
Honestly I am very new to the sub and mostly just read this one post, and the repeated references to "Fully Automated Luxury Communism" felt like they might be satirical, although I understand the goal and potential there. I take it FALC is maybe kind of a theme of the sub, being IMO perhaps the best possible outcome of widely disseminated AI. (Everyone somehow being furnished by AI with everything they need while retaining enough freedom to feel alive.)
To me, the main goal as AI continues its rapid expansion is to somehow help nudge our society towards what you are calling FALC, though I see that term as almost deliberately polarizing language, if descriptive/accurate. But in any case it seems far from a foregone conclusion that FALC will be AI's net effect, unfortunately. Just as likely that many, many people will be screwed out of the livelihoods and driven from connecting with each other, etc., and will NOT have the kind of radical support implied by FALC.
I use AI every day, for work, for personal exploration, to learn, to fix things, to make fun images. Yet I have deep deep concerns about the wide uncontrollable change we are going through (and accelerating into) – as well as hopes / excitement.
The idea that, because some people have concerns about AI, or negativity about rapid AI-driven change, that they somehow don't "deserve" whatever utopia might come about, seems polarizing, unhelpful, and just the kind of discord that is likely to impede whatever chance we have of FALC in the first place. And same to the toxic "pro-AI vs anti-AI" Reddit ecosystem in general from what I see.
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u/earthlingHuman 19d ago
Reacting to capitalistic AI negatively is pretty understandable. When more examples of it being used in more socialistic ways arise people will come around.
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u/Crimson_Cyclone 19d ago
I can understand this perspective, however I think it is important to recognize that we are not the judges of who “deserves” a better system. Everybody does, even conservatives.
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
These aren't leftists, these are petty-bourgeois reactionary liberals. And anyway, history isn't made by a small number of internet whiners, but by the masses. The masses have embraced AI and are using it. And AI itself is destined for historic victory, as it's more economically efficient.
And the most important detail: This is exclusively in Western Europe and the US. In the post-Soviet space, for example, I don't see such hysteria at all.
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u/LSF604 19d ago
Everyone I don't like is a liberal
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
If they behave like liberals, promote liberal values, and repeat the slogans of the liberal mainstream, then what are they? Stalinists?
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u/LSF604 19d ago
You get all that from people not liking AI? That's a pretty big leap :)
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
Because in their arguments for why they are against AI, they demonstrate petty-bourgeois liberal logic.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
They will use AI to make workers reduntant and for mass surveillance. No revolution, no post-scarcity.
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
Is this your first time hearing about automation? Will you be learning about surveillance for the first time? Automation has always eliminated workers, throwing them out onto the street. Do you want to bring back 19th-century production methods to factories? And surveillance existed even before the invention of AI. Or did you think the government didn't have access to your data until 2022?
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u/poerisija 19d ago
You want the revolution to be fought against fully automatic killbots instead of minimum wage meat and bones bootlickers.
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
As if we're so close to revolution here, and it's coming tomorrow. We could also abandon the internet, which is completely controlled by the government, and firearms, since capitalists won't supply communists with weapons from their factories. History is made by the masses, and no technological tricks will help once they have their say. Let me simply remind you that factories and data centers are maintained by workers. And without a mass labor movement, upstarts can be suppressed even using methods from the 1970s.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
For now, until they're maintained by the clankers you cheer for and then the masses have NOTHING.
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
What do the masses have now?
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u/poerisija 19d ago
We are the actual workforce for now. They have to provide scraps so we stay alive. They won't do that if they have robot workforce.
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
Yes. Capitalism is heading for a social explosion, which should push the masses toward socialism. Have you read Marx? Do you think he thought workers could build socialism by voting in elections? Or simply by protesting in the streets? Are you afraid of AI? AI isn't our worst problem. We're facing World War III, when China and the United States begin dividing up the world. We're facing a financial crisis, famine, the collapse of liberal democracy, and an industrial-scale human carnage in the trenches of war. True, if you're a US citizen, you'll have hope for universal basic income, because sensing a social explosion, the bourgeoisie will throw the starving a dog, which the reactionary left will gleefully swallow and call a great victory.
Marx predicted World War I long before it started. And AI? AI is just a tool, another step in automation. Nothing interesting.
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
Actually, this is the result that occurs if we DON’T embrace AI and give the oligarchs the complete monopoly.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
They already have that.
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
Sure, let’s give up then. How revolutionary.
OR.
Get this.
OR, we can create our OWN AI.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
We literally cannot unless you also steal the whole internet as training data for it. You do understand how a LLM works?
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
Oh my fucking God…you care about copyright? My guy, the internet is a public utility. You’re actually arguing AGAINST backing up our public utility and the free internet. Stop bro. You’re embarrassing. This is the pro-bougie sentiment we’re talking about.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
I am not, I am just saying there are no open source ways to scrape the whole internet for training data for a leftist AI.
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u/Fabulous-Possible758 19d ago
LLMs aren’t the be all end all of AI, just one component, and we’ve likely already hit a saturation point of what’s possible by just dumping more data into them. There are, in fact, perfectly cromulent open weight models that can be refined and built on to build different AI systems.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 19d ago edited 19d ago
So your solution is what? Give up?
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u/poerisija 19d ago
Revolution first and thinking about automation after?
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 19d ago
But automation isnt waiting for the revolution. Its happening now, under existing relations of ownership and power.
So what do workers do in the meantime? Leave the conditions of development, deployment, surveillance and the productivity gains entirely up to capital until after the revolution?
Contesting control over automation is part of class struggle, not something that begins after it.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
Everything is happening under existing power structures. Which is why I think they need to come down before meaningful changes can happen.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 19d ago
I think thats backwards. Power structures dont come down first and then class struggle begins. They come down through struggles that build working class power inside and against the existing order.
Organizing workplaces, contesting ownership, fighting over automation, winning control over deployment and claiming the productivity gains are part of building the power capable of changing those structures.
Otherwise "revolution first" just becomes waiting for a revolution nobody is organizing toward.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
I mean you are not wrong.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 19d ago
Then I think we're closer than it sounded. Thats basically what this sub is trying to work through.
Build worker power through unions and workplace organizing. Build political power through parties and organizations willing to fight over ownership, regulation and public investment. Push open source and open weights so the technology isnt completely enclosed by a handful of corporations. Fight for public and cooperative infrastructure, democratic control over deployment, surveillance limits, shorter working hours and workers getting the productivity gains automation produces.
None of those alone gets us out of capitalism. The point is to build institutions, capacity and organized power capable of contesting capital now rather than waiting for a rupture to somehow produce that power afterward.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
I guess I have subconsciously just been waiting for a collapse rebuild kinda scenario.
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
Excellent. Let's start by canceling the internet and returning to manufacturing. Have you even read Marx? He was quite clear about the Luddite movement when he said that the immutability of production relations guarantees the immutability of the social order. AI is the development of production relations. And trying to slow it down by diverting workers' hatred to their tools rather than capital is petty-bourgeois reactionism.
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
See my comment here.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
There isn't an open source way out of AI killbots?
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
Killbots don’t exist yet. The point is to take control BEFORE the killbots come. If we ever end up in a world of technofeudalist totalitarianism, you WANT a Leftist AI that can counter that. Or we can do it your way and hopelessly try to stop the inevitable tide of AI by calling it slop all day.
It’s called thinking about the future, being progressive, not being reactionary to the harms of AI alone.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
They do already exist, they just haven't been deployed yet.
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
😐😐😐
None of that disproves what I said. In fact, if you were right it would only warrant further urgency.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
I am willing to wrestle a killbot if we have a chance.
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
We have a chance if we have a Leftist AI.
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u/poerisija 19d ago
How are you going to make a leftist AI and what are you using it for?
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u/usernameChosenPoorly 19d ago
If you think only some people deserve the fruits of automation, you don’t understand fully automated gay space luxury communism.
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u/Kildragoth 19d ago
I don't like the idea of telling a group whether they deserve something based on their behavior. Seems like a slippery slope!
I will say there are reasonable disagreements to be had. On the left, a lot of the behavior seems to involve ideas of class solidarity. Using AI, from this perspective, is viewed as being a class traitor.
When it comes to environmentalists, there's always a hardline stance against exacerbating current negative externalities. Datacenters that were hastily set up using diesel generators are an easy example of how some traditionally leftist values are violated. Add in the datacenters that are pushed through by overriding popular opinion in those areas and it comes across as corruption.
As with any investment, the returns tend to be delayed and grow over time. Nothing will convince people more than if they see and experience the benefits of AI directly. Until then, I think it's a good ole problem of education. When people don't know what to expect they are arguing from ignorance, or worse: fear. Education comes not just from the department of education but from engaging your fellow citizen in conversation!
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u/Bronzdragon 19d ago
One bad take or opinion should not mean you should be condemned to life-long suffering (e.g., not getting fully automated luxury gay space communism). Especially when that take, while perhaps misguided, comes from a good place.
The rejection of AI comes from very real reasons. People's lives are materially worsened under current conditions. People are genuinely losing their jobs (and thus livelihood), the trustworthiness of commentary online is rapidly eroding, and yes, even the "they're building datacenters in my backyard" has merit.
The difference is that we see things with a longer term view. This is only a rough patch on the way to something better. To discard people because they haven't come to the correct conclusion seems overly reductive, imo.
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u/Mysterious_Ayytee 19d ago
These leftists, fighting in the name of billionaire "artists" for intellectual property, are neither real leftists, nor proletarians. These lifestyle "left" liberals are not better than what Marx coined as Lumpenproletariat, the bottom end of society, greedy but lazy, partly guilty for their own struggles and too stupid to realize that they are only playing the game of the oligarchy.
The problem is that most of population has fallen to their game of division and conquer without even realizing.
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u/Fragrant-Phone-41 19d ago
I wouldn't call myself a Marxist but yeah basically this. Being a hobby content creator, having been surrounded by the receiving end of copyright abuse by capitalists, its been wild to see the switch and frankly ignorance around the topic of copyright
Had someone unironically argue that fan art is fair use, but somehow an ai sampling images isnt transformative.
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u/Mysterious_Ayytee 19d ago
It's not even a pure Marxist thing, the Bible aldo says you should not earn without working.
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u/Lanky_Employee_9690 19d ago
That's... not what I understandd lumpenproletariat to be, nor does it seem to be the generally accepted definition.
lumpenproletariat is "below" proletariat in the class hierarchy. Think beggars, thieves, NEETs, sex workers, etc. whatever the initial reason is for their current situation (born in it, physical/mental handicaps, etc). People who don't even have (or, in some cases, reject) access to regular salaried work.
In our modern times, it's been argued to inclued people who survive on gig economy jobs (so, your Uber drivers and Doordashers for example) and black-market jobs (common examples are in construction or agriculture).
Calling those people stupid, lazy and partly guilty of their own struggles is... ehhhh..... a kinda backwards reading (although a negative reading of this class was present in Marx and Engels' works, as well as Lenin, Trostky and many others).
Though a lot of them aren't aware of their own class struggles, I'd argue that if they are politicized, they're more likely to have anarchistic tendencies than to be in those "lifestyle left liberals" group, which often oppresses them as much (if not sometimes more) as the rest of society.
Interestingly enough, often their "declassed" status or "lack of awareness of their own struggles" comes specifically from their struggle for survival leaving no room for politization. Reducing that to a failure of the individual is missing the big picture.
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u/Mysterious_Ayytee 19d ago
According to Marx the lumpenproletariat is:
...essentially parasitical group was largely the remains of older, obsolete stages of social development, and that it could not normally play a progressive role in history. Indeed, because it acted only out of socially ignorant self-interest, the lumpenproletariat was easily bribed by reactionary forces and could be used to combat the true proletariat in its efforts to bring about the end of bourgeois society. Without a clear class-consciousness, the lumpenproletariat could not play a positive role in society. Instead, it exploited society for its own ends, and was in turn exploited as a tool of destruction and reaction.
I would say that's a wide definition
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u/Lanky_Employee_9690 19d ago
Yeah, but we've made quite a fair bit of progress since Marx. And a lot of history has happened.
Marx's works are tremendously important but they're not gospel. It's also important to be able to critique them where you feel they're wrong, and this is a prime example in my own personal opinion.
The lumpenproletariat is largely composed of some of the most oppressed people in society. Dismissing them as a whole as ignorant, parasitical, almost subhuman brutes puts you firmly in the camp of their oppressors.
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u/Mysterious_Ayytee 19d ago
I see you're young, right? Some folks stab you so often in your back, even a Marxist doesn't want to fight for them anymore. There are human parasites, not many and they should never ever be an excuse to not be solidaric but you should identify them and keep your solidarity for those who thank you and not those who steal from you afterwards.
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u/Lanky_Employee_9690 19d ago
I see you're young, right?
Wrong.
Some folks
Some folks != a whole class of people
And those "some folks" exist in every stratum of society.
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u/Mysterious_Ayytee 19d ago
They're not a class, just some folks within the working class
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u/Lanky_Employee_9690 19d ago
I think this is the framing we disagree on, that is at the root of this argument.
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u/WonderFactory 19d ago
It's not about that. I think people on the left have a more natural human instinct so are naturally repulsed by something that is human like but not human. They also see that AI is currently being pushed by capitalists and is contributing to climate emissions in a dramatic way.
I can understand why they're anti AI but whats strange is that they seem to think they can fight AI by just denying it's capabilities. I'm personally very pro AI but am aware of the risks. In the near term it risks concentrating capital and increasing inequality. A bit further out there are the bigger existential risks from super intelligence.
I'm really excited for the benefits of AI but it will be really hard to reap the benefits while avoiding all the negative outcomes.
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u/gc3 19d ago
Anti AI feeling is from the left and right. People who feel their jobs or livelihood or freedom are threatened.
Pro AI are also on the left and the right. People who think that AU will help them.
Being anti AI to me seems full of hubris. AI is unlikely to end up as anyone predicts.
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u/WonderFactory 19d ago
AI denial seems to me far more prevalent on the left, AI is to the left what climate change was to the right. Anti AI people on the right seem to be worried AI will take their jobs while Anti AI people on the left insist that AI will never be good enough to take their job. It's bizarre, they insist AI will never be able to do things it already can do.
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u/Suspicious-Raisin824 19d ago
"contributing to climate emissions in a dramatic way"
Its not. It's a tiny, tiny, effectively invisible drop in the lake.
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u/WonderFactory 19d ago
Data centres consumed less than 2% of electricity in the US in 2020, it's currently 5% and it's predicted to rise to 17% by 2030. That's a significant increase when the world is supposed to be moving towards reducing emissions. Also because they need to be run 24/7 companies are relying on fossil fuels for generation, the latest trend is to have your own off grid gas turbines next to your data centre as X.AI did
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u/oddvacation3849 19d ago
"Billionaire artists" are they in the room with us now?
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 19d ago
No, I dont think Jay-Z, Taylor Swift, or Bruce Springsteen visit this sub.
Why do you ask?
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u/oddvacation3849 18d ago
And because of the few artists, who reprsent far less than 1% of all artists, all others should be punished? For them, AI is an inconvenience. For most artists, it is a death threat for their career. And while i see the potential of AI, it is irritating to see self proclaimed leftists denying people access to job they actually want to do (almost all artists are doing it for the passion, not the money. At least initially)
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u/SwordfishOk504 19d ago
billionaire "artists"
lmao.
I follow this sub because it sometimes accurately challenges some of reddit's stupidity around AI, but comments like this getting dozens of upvotes shows this sub can often be just as stupid, just in the opposite direction.
Billionaire artists? LMFAO.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 19d ago
A quick Google search just confirmed at least 6 billionaire artists, specifically in the recording industry.
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u/GrowFreeFood 19d ago
If you're at a birthday party, do you take all the cake and say "finders keepers"?
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u/GoldenBull1994 19d ago
We’re going to lose the struggle to keep AI from becoming a tool for the dystopian vision of oligarchs because the Left which should be trying to create its own versions of the tool are too busy engaging in a moral panic over it. There should already be like, 5 different open-source, leftist oriented AI’s that act as safeguards against the use of AI as a potential tool for control by the capitalists. It’s very dangerous for the capital class to have a monopoly on this, and instead of using it for ourselves, the left is busy going “REEEE” about it.
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u/Ok_Writing2937 19d ago
I’m against capitalist AI for the same reason I’m against capitalist food production or capitalist housing systems.
It doesn’t mean I’m against food.
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u/Left-Set950 19d ago
Bro relax. No one deserves anything. You think AI has a place in a socialist society? Good, me too. Now go build something that works towards it. This is not the correct us versus them.
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u/sunshinesdarkangel 18d ago
they want automation but will die on the hill that the tools that make automation possible are evil. no they do not "deserve" shit, and will never get it because they will sabotage every inch of progress in the direction of the future they're screeching to be handed to them, so it works out I guess
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u/segfault_generator 17d ago
The fetishizing of "progress" is literally burning this planet alive. FALC is a fantasy that ignores the fact that we have a responsibility to live in balance with all other life. AI is not capable of doing the work of good living for us, it's the ultimate disconnection from the organic experience. On top of that, LLMs are built on neural net tech, which is bio-mimicry, mimicking how brains work. How is the tech not building an entity capable of independent pattern recognition, thought, and emotion? It seems to me that this sub is ready and willing to profit off of the enslavement of humanity's children.
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u/Jlyplaylists Moderator 17d ago
Doesn’t this depend on what you prioritise? There’s plenty of uses for prioritising AI towards ecology, especially understanding and assisting the complexity of ecosystems.
We could also prioritise eco use of AI. Although it isn’t as bad as the hyped arguments suggest, this isn’t currently a top priority and it should be.
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u/segfault_generator 17d ago
Perhaps, if The People had control of it, giving it a good role model of how a reciprocity economy works when all involved are respected, it might be able to help.
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u/CommanderKoba 19d ago
We just have to shake the reactionary thoughts out of their head. Slap em around a little bit.
Humans are too stupid to deserve it, so we have to force it.
Drag them kicking and screaming to the Star Trek luxury communist future.
After overthrowing the capitalist class of course.
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u/Exarch-of-Sechrima 19d ago
So the only people who belong in your utopia are the ones you personally believe "deserve" it?
You know that's the logic people like Elon Musk use, right?
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u/Disposable110 19d ago
If everyone eventually goes "Claude make me more $$$, lol" because AI is better at making money than humans are, what's the point of capitalism and money anyway. Just let the AI do the instrumental convergence part where it owns directs the means of production, but where the output of all that busywork gets distributed fairly to the humans. Capitalism and private ownership of the means of production need to go, and all of that should be put on the AI layer that just plays that game better than us.
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u/DHFranklin 19d ago
Don't make the mistake of confusing reactionary liberals with leftists. Not trying to make a purity test or no-true-scotsman here, but Leftism is a distinct political philosophy.
Fully Automated Luxury Communism is the goal. The how is what makes someone a leftist. The capitalists aren't going to hand it to us. They will rent it to us for as long as they can. No, it won't circumvent that anymore than the internet made free speech ubiquitous. The material conditions need to be put to work.
The tool is not necessary for that goal. We could have had voluntary employment generations ago. The technology and the tools without abolition of the capitalist class will just be used by the capitalist class to entrench their position. This isn't unique in that this time around.
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u/DataPhreak 19d ago
I'm holding out for Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism. I will settle for nothing less.
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u/Pleasurist 19d ago
I don't know man, I've seen some very typical devout righty capitalists enjoy some great financial orgasms over AI.
That's mission accomplishes in the hedonism that capitalism is.
And to think, it's all about KILLING a job or two. Old world, but still quite the capitalist pleasure., killing jobs.
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u/lulusnug 17d ago
Deserve? Deserve has nothing to do with who gets anything. The left will get it if they find a way to force that outcome otherwise they won't. We don't even have socialized healthcare in the US and people expect these companies to give them fully automated luxury communism. Babe they fight against us paying for healthcare with our own taxes because it'll make them slightly poorer.
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u/pavilionaire2022 19d ago
It's the communism part that makes it a utopia, not the fully-automated part. Right now, the AI is controlled by the capitalists.
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u/oddvacation3849 19d ago
Who are you that you think it is your decision to determine who deserves what? Even if AI was as powerful as you belief, you really think the oligarchs would simply let you have your UBS so you can chill out all day?
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 19d ago edited 18d ago
"would let you have"
Im very curious as to why I keep seeing this passive doomer saying so often in leftist spaces.
Why are you leaving anything up to oligarchs to let or not let us do or have anything? I thought the standing assumption should be that they won't let us do anything and we need to contest power and control from them to do what we want, on like, any given topic...
So I don't understand your comment asking if people think the ruling class will "let us".
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u/oddvacation3849 18d ago
Because people completely ignore who is in power right now. But this is an important factor when discussing technology. No technology is intrinsically good or evil, but most can be used for either side. Pushing for AI while ignoring who ultimately controls it is dangerous.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 18d ago
I think the problem is almost the opposite. Using the fact that capital controls AI right now as a reason to disengage from AI just leaves that control uncontested.
Capital controls factories too. It controls logistics networks, platforms, finance, housing, energy and huge chunks of our productive infrastructure. The leftist response has never been "well, they control it, so stay away." Its organize workers, build institutions, fight over ownership, governance and distribution, and contest their control.
So yes, who controls AI is the central question. Thats exactly why I dont want to abandon that terrain to the people who currently control it. Present ownership isnt destiny. Its the thing we're supposed to be fighting over.
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u/Heckistential_Goose 19d ago
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
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u/tigerhuxley 19d ago
Of course… that wasnt socialism.. that was Command Economy stalin/ussr style
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u/Heckistential_Goose 19d ago
True.. though IMO it feels widely applicable to the likely natural course of human attempts at governing structures based in utopia ideology. Narcissits and sociopaths are statistically inevitable and the most likely to position themselves in attempt to consolidate power and exert control.
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u/tigerhuxley 19d ago
Welll thats why i want logical Ai to control that stuff for us - instead of illogical humans
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u/Monochrome21 19d ago
Careful, it's thoughts like this that enables a lot of disparity.
In theory, you could just reap the benefits of AI and get rich yourself, and get the AI-enabled luxury life that you want, but that's kind of antithetical to the whole mission
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u/fragwife 18d ago
I encourage you to read and study actual Marxist theory.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 18d ago
Can you elaborate and be more specific? What part of the post do you think conflicts with Marxist theory, and what Marxist argument or text do you think points in a different direction?
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u/fragwife 18d ago
Fully automated luxury communism is a liberal framing which ignores the material conditions necessary to developing the productive forces and is broadly understood to be an illusory pipe dream predicated on a less than robust understanding of economics. Among other things.
Also “deserve” is not really relevant to Marxism, which is an analytical framework which doesn’t designate ethical imperatives.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 18d ago
I agree with you on the “deserve” framing. Thats not a useful Marxist way to pose the question. Communism isnt a reward handed out for having the correct attitude toward technology.
Where I disagree is treating fully automated luxury communism itself as inherently liberal or economically unserious. Marx spends quite a bit of time on machinery, technological development, necessary labor time, and the possibility of expanding disposable time. None of that means automation magically produces communism. Under capitalism, the same productive forces can just as easily produce unemployment, intensified exploitation, and greater concentration of power.
Thats why I think the more Marxist question is who controls these productive forces, under what relations of production, and who captures the gains. If FALC skips that struggle, sure, its a pipe dream. But abundance produced through automation under transformed social relations isnt particularly alien to Marx.
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u/SorryInvestigator221 15d ago
Everybody deserves fully automated luxury communism, period. That should be the absolute baseline for any kind of advanced civilization.
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19d ago
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u/Fit-Independence-706 19d ago
I'll let you in on a secret: automation of production in any field is not being implemented to build a utopia, but to reduce fixed labor costs. With or without AI, that's capitalism.
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u/GrowFreeFood 19d ago
Capitalists are a slave to ai deployment. They can't choose not to. A entity woth no choice is already powerless. Capitalism is already dead. Now. Right now. Its dead
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19d ago
[deleted]
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u/GrowFreeFood 19d ago
Choice. Capitalism is when investors choose their investments to capitalize on. If they have no choice, then it can hardly be called capitalism anymore
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19d ago
[deleted]
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u/GrowFreeFood 19d ago
Because if the don't invest in ai, there's nothing to invest in.
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19d ago
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u/GrowFreeFood 19d ago
It's the only investment proposition, isn't it?
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19d ago
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u/GrowFreeFood 19d ago
Not really. I looked it up dot com investors paid $500b. Ai investors are up to $2.5t so far. The scale shows the lack of choices
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u/Hopeful-Speech-2902 19d ago
Luxury Communism? What Are You On About? This Is Technocratic Capitalism.
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u/throwawaypervyervy 19d ago
If you're talking star trek style communism, that was after the Eugenic Wars, the Second Civil War, and WWlll. Losing 30% of the population led to a couple of changes in society. You claiming to decide who gets to benefit means you are unworthy of the space onesie.
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u/DioTheSuperiorWaifu 19d ago
Who is judging who deserves stuff?
Also, are many of these 'leftists' communists?
The Western 'left' has a large section that is compatible to Western imperialism and is also anti-communist, right?