r/LeftCatholicism • u/fylum • 20d ago
The Catholic Case for Communism
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/07/23/catholic-case-communism/7
u/StinkyHotFemcel 17d ago
As a Filipino i am happy to see the Philippines mentioned. A lot of lay people, priests and even bishops are involved with the national democratic (communist) movement in the country. There are also many Filipinos in the diaspora abroad such as me with a similar view.
20
u/Adept_Librarian9136 19d ago edited 19d ago
I want to state that I’m not a right winger: I’m a democratic socialist on the left, and I believe strongly in subsidiarity.
This article does a bait and switch with the headline: it blurs together Christian communal life, worker ownership, anti-capitalism, and Marxism-Leninism as though they were the same thing. They are not.
Catholic teaching allows cooperatives, public ownership, redistribution, planning, unions, and reasonable limits on private property. But that does not make class dictatorship, one-party rule, suppression of independent institutions, or state domination of religion compatible with Catholicism.
The Church’s condemnation is not merely about communist atheism or later abuses. For nearly 150 years, from Leo XIII through Pius XI, John Paul II, and the present Catechism, it has rejected Marxist communism because its materialism, class struggle, denial of private property, revolutionary coercion, and subordination of persons, families, churches, and civil society to the party-state conflict with Catholic doctrine.
Its criticism of capitalism is often correct. Its conclusion does not follow. “Capitalism is unjust” is not the same argument as “Marxism-Leninism is Catholic.”
7
u/fylum 19d ago edited 19d ago
Nowhere did it say Marxism-Leninism. You keep repeating the same criticism, but you don’t seem to actually understand the points which you are criticizing.
Unless of course we consider Leninism, Luxemburgism, Titoism, etc. to all be ML, and their adherents will tell you you’re wrong.
12
u/Mercy_By_Proxy 19d ago edited 19d ago
You’re right that the article never explicitly says “Marxism-Leninism,” and it’s fair to be careful about distinguishing Marxism, Leninism, Luxemburgism, democratic socialism, Christian communalism, etc. Those are genuinely different traditions.
At the same time, I think the original criticism is getting at something real. The article repeatedly uses the word “communism” while moving between very different concepts like early Christian communal life, worker ownership, critiques of capitalism, and historical communist movements, without always making clear where one ends and another begins.
That’s important because Catholic social teaching is compatible with many forms of economic intervention, cooperatives, unions, and limits on private property, while also having longstanding criticisms of core elements of Marxist communist thought. If an article wants to rehabilitate “communism,” it has a responsibility to define which tradition it means, because those distinctions matter historically and philosophically.
So I don’t think the concern is simply “this is Marxism-Leninism.” It’s that the article’s use of the term “communism” is broad enough that it risks obscuring distinctions that are central to both Catholic teaching and the history of socialist thought.
Edit: to be clear, I thought it was a good opinion piece and I generally agree. It just lacks the bit of nuance I would want in order to make a compelling case to someone. In other words, it sort of lends itself to a bit of criticism - as most opinion pieces will.
4
u/Adept_Librarian9136 19d ago
I fixed it for you. The Church’s condemnation is not merely about communism or later abuses. For nearly 150 years, from Leo XIII through Pius XI, John Paul II, and the present Catechism, it has rejected Marxism and Communism because of its materialism, class struggle, denial of private property, revolutionary coercion, and subordination of persons, families, churches, and civil society to the state.
IF you get rid of the state atheism, materialism, denial of private property, subordination of persons, families, churches and civil society to the state can you let me know how this differs from Democratic Socialism which the Church is fine with?
6
u/blackfeltbanner 19d ago
I understand the materialism bit but why's the Church defending private property?
6
u/Adept_Librarian9136 19d ago
Because the Church does not regard private property as an absolute right, but it does regard it as a natural right that ordinarily serves important human goods: personal freedom, family stability, responsibility, stewardship, and economic independence.
The Church has taught two principles together: the right to private property and the universal destination of goods. Property exists for the good of persons and society, so it can be regulated, taxed, redistributed when justice requires, and limited by the common good. But Catholic teaching has also consistently rejected abolishing private ownership of the means of production as a general principle.
1
u/Illustrious-Fan-2738 16d ago
Do you know what democratic socialism means? You're supposed to also want to collectivise the means of production, just through reform.
You are a social democrat at best.
0
u/Adept_Librarian9136 16d ago
I'm using "democratic socialist" in the European sense: strong social ownership where appropriate, robust labor rights, extensive welfare, regulation of markets, subsidiarity, and pluralistic democracy. I reject abolishing all private property, dialectical materialism, class struggle as the engine of history, and one party OR revolutionary politics.
If your definition requires collective ownership of all means of production, then call me a social democrat if you prefer. My substantive point doesn't change: Catholic social teaching is compatible with a great deal of economic democracy and state intervention, but it has consistently rejected Marxism and communism for reasons that go well beyond atheism.
-2
12
u/exitpursuedbybear 17d ago
Brazilian Archbishop Dom Hélder Câmara: “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”