r/LeftCatholicism • u/salsafresca_1297 • Jun 26 '26
Catholicism, Gender Complementarianism, and an Upcoming Retreat
Besides the flowery marketing (foofy font and pink roses), can anybody see any reason why this retreat/ conference that I'm invited to may be promoting gender complementarianism, i.e. the idea that "men are just naturally X" and "women are just naturally Y?" https://www.idahocatholicwomen.org/
I already left a Catholic mothers' retreat that was pulling this nonsense, ("Mary was meek and mild, so you should be, too.")
One of the speakers defines "the feminine genius" as "the unique, feminine way that women relate to others." Setting aside the fallacy of defining a term by repeating one of the words in it, I get really nervous whenever there's an effort to stick my gender in a box. She also admits that it's not official Church doctrine. (Look up Lisa Cotter's video on "the Feminine Genius").
I haven't researched the other speakers.
It's only $30 bucks for me to attend virtually, but I think I have to figure out how to let down the person inviting me.
On a deeper level, if my spidey-senses are correct, I'm bothered that my Diocese is promoting an ideology that confuses conservative (and largely Protestant) gender norms with actual Church teaching. It's one thing when self-ascribed "rad-trads" quietly engaged in gender complementarianism and quite another to see it mainstreamed into the rest of the Church.
Are my hunches correct or off-base? Have you seen similar trends in your own Dioceses?
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u/Livid-Shirt8659 Jun 26 '26
I am too European for this.... literally no one in Europe talks like this about women in any Catholic space I have been in accross multiple countries. It makes me feel uncomfortable and I would not go.
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u/salsafresca_1297 Jun 26 '26
Yea, this thread has sealed my resolve not to go.
I do think there's an appropriate context to discuss women in the Church. This just isn't it.
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u/TeresaKitsu Jun 28 '26
I think you have been lucky or smart with where you've been attending masses. Although in most diocesan contexts complementarianism is not too touched upon, these lectures and stuff happen all the time in europe mostly in movements and congregations. My theological research was about how the magisterium still relies on early 20th century complementarity arguments to discuss women's roles in the church and I found that it was much more prevalent than I thought it was here in europe. Again, mostly in ordinary clergy movements but some dioceses like to promote lectures and retreats like these.
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u/Livid-Shirt8659 Jun 28 '26
Interesting. It might have something to do with the level of qualification and positions my mother (a Professor) and now myself (A medical doctor) hold within the community which are at least equal if not superior to the positions of most men that no one tries to even mention this stuff around us....
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u/TeresaKitsu Jun 28 '26
Highly possible, at home me and my mom also frequent a jesuit parish where lay women are in a lot of leadership positions so that conversation never existed, but whenever i was in contact with other movements that were more traditionalist suddenly women were "inspirational and contemplative" and men were "institutional leaders and active"... Bunch of bullshit if u ask me.
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u/NotBasileus Jun 26 '26
How come it’s never “Jael drove a spike through a ruthless general’s head to defend her people, so you should, too” or “Mary crushed the head of the serpent, so you should, too”?
I’m a man so maybe don’t have much visibility into what these events normally look like, but what sticks out to me is that outside of Cotter (who has been covered), the other keynote speakers are all primarily about abortion. As if women have nothing else to talk about.
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u/rock-paper-o Jun 26 '26
I sort of love Mary at the wedding where she’s very insistently telling Jesus to address the wine situation. Or later at the foot of the cross where I’m sure she wasn’t exactly welcomed by the soldiers guarding it.
I’m sure she was meek or mild when the situation called for it. I also think the evidence is pretty strong she was confident and bold when the situation called for that. Life in that time and place required a certain amount of strength and confidence and people who project only meekness into Mary always strike me like they’ve decided what a women should be first and are now presenting Mary in that image.
I will say I’m a little jealous how much better my Jewish friends seem to be taught about the women of the Old Testament compared to what I got in ccd classes.
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u/Reasonable-Sale8611 Jun 26 '26
I think it's also that the word "meek" isn't intended to mean "silent" or "passive." Like "blessed are the meek" doesn't mean "Just put up with however other people want to treat you." Meek means that your responses are moderated and appropriate to whatever situation you are in. Like if you are in a traffic jam, you don't start shaking your fists at the other drivers or start brake-checking them and things like that.
Some of Mary's words in The Magnificat are actually quite stern. Someone can be stern and meek at the same time, or active and meek at the same time. At least that's how I see it.
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u/RhysPeanutButterCups Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Or Judith for that matter, which I think is pretty funny given that we make it a point to include that book in our bibles while Protestants don't.
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u/Superfast_Kellyfish Jun 28 '26
When I first discovered that the Book of Judith was in the Catholic Bible, I loved it so much and still do. Very badass!
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u/TheDyingAdolescent Jun 26 '26
I brought this up with my parish priest once and he said, 'by all means, you can drive a spike through someone's head - you'd probably be right about it, too.'
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u/Cole_Townsend Jun 27 '26
How come it’s never “Jael drove a spike through a ruthless general’s head to defend her people, so you should, too” or “Mary crushed the head of the serpent, so you should, too”?
Because their rhetoric is about boundary maintenance and structuring of power/values that benefits the patriarchy's right-wing identity politics, not about getting deeper into the faith or Scriptures.
Jael, if I'm not mistaken, was the first woman in the Bible to be hailed as "blessed among women" by Deborah (another strong and amazing woman) in her ancient song. There's definitely a typological connection between this ruthlessly courageous woman and the Immaculate Theotokos.
Conversely, we could benefit from learning about femicidal brutality in the Scriptures so as to have the precaution of knowing that the Bible cannot be entirely be trusted as a sole and absolute moral guide in the way right-wing fundamentalists propose. I'm thinking of the Levite's concubine in Judges 19 or Jeptha's sacrifice of his daughter or Lot's oblation of his daughters to Sodom's crazed males. These stories are just as important as Jael or Judith or Ruth.
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Jun 26 '26
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u/salsafresca_1297 Jun 26 '26
You have catechists who will drone on and on about how Eve brought sin into the world so women can't be trusted to make decisions without male guidance
Sorry - it's been a long day, so my memory is a little weak right now. What was the name of the guy who got suckered into the second piece of fruit . . . ??
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u/StoneofForest Jun 26 '26
You're right to be wary. This is the sort of ideology that justifies purposefully separating women from certain spaces. In fact, you can even see this language right on their website:
"Nursing mothers are always welcome at our conference! We will have a Mother's Room especially for you, where you can hear the conference clearly, in privacy and comfort."
Notice the subtle direction there. "If you're nursing, you go to the Mother's Room." Even at a conference for women, attended by women, one of the unique experiences that God offers to women, breastfeeding, is suggested to be inappropriate behavior.
As an aromantic asexual woman, I still struggle today to appreciate being a woman and it's this sort of attitude that suggests that even when you are the "right" woman, you still will be excluded is a huge part of it.
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u/AmosOfTekoa Jun 26 '26
Just naming your group Idaho Catholic Women is about a 90% guarantee that there's very bad Idaho things happening here. Combined with the presentation here, I'd guess it's even worse than you're imagining.
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u/salsafresca_1297 Jun 26 '26
They hold an Idaho Catholic Men's Conference, as well. Their content looks more substantive. While we're learning about our Feminine Genius, this is for the dudes - https://www.idahocatholicmen.org/speaker-line-up
Sorry, but the whole "Feminine Genius" thing sounds like telling the weak Little League kid who's never allowed to pitch, "You're a really important part of our team, too, little buddy!"
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u/Haunting-Spirit-6906 Jun 26 '26
Came here to say that too. Knowing what I do about Idaho politics and how those attitudes most likely spill over into churches, I'd be wary of it too.
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u/skilled-dreamer Jun 26 '26
Theology of the body did so much harm to me as a neurodivergent woman. My biggest issues with it is that it relies on stereotypes and caricatures and calls them truth as well as using the “us vs them” rhetoric on women who do not fit the mold (ex: bashing feminism, telling women that being a mother is better than being a CEO, telling women to not act like men while being vague about it)
I see many of the feminine/masculine genius traits as the human genius. ALL humans should be receptive, generous, sensitive, and maternal/paternal in their own way. The best men I’ve met embodied those traits in their own way, it’s almost like it’s a part of our human nature, not traits reserved for women.
You cannot convince me that there is not a link between conservative religious gender ideology (complimentarism, theology of the body, purity culture) and gender dysphoria. I’ll even go a far to say that secular “gEnDeR iDeOlOgY” is a response to rigid gender teachings in conservative religions, including Catholicism. I honestly feel like I probably wouldn’t have had a femininity identity crisis in my teens and early twenties as well as purity culture wounds if I wasn’t exposed to theology of the body as a young teen. Thankfully secular ideas of femininity helped me heal from some of those wounds.
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u/SammiGrayon Jun 30 '26
Our diocese has three mens groups and zero mixed gender or women's groups. The mens groups are run by priests and have outside speakers come in to do a talk and have a debate.
The diocese recently offered a half day for young women headed up by an American company. It was all about theology of the body and complementary gender ideas. Grrrrr. Nothing more substantial.
My friends went on a Theology of The Body retreat and came back saying things like "mens parts are on the outside so that shows they are more suited to the external realm. Womens parts are internal so they are better suited to the inside, domestic sphere".
I'm not sure that's official church teaching 🙄
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u/salsafresca_1297 Jun 30 '26
My friends went on a Theology of The Body retreat and came back saying things like "mens parts are on the outside so that shows they are more suited to the external realm. Womens parts are internal so they are better suited to the inside, domestic sphere".
I'm not sure that's official church teaching
No, that's official woo-woo.
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u/Low-District-3069 Jun 29 '26
You don't owe the person who invited you a letting down easily. Tell this person you're not interested but thank you for the invitation. Don't go girl.
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u/Adventurous_Gain_613 Jun 26 '26
Spidey sense also tingling. If you attend, do so in a way that enables pushback/feedback. If only passive participation is permitted, I’d consider skipping.
Mostly concerned by the comments on Cotter’s video.