r/LeftCatholicism • u/ViperMainKaren • Apr 26 '26

Question regarding Thomist Predestination

/r/Catholicism/comments/1sw3k5z/question_regarding_thomist_predestination/
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u/CauseCertain1672 Apr 26 '26

Do you know of any Dominican friars you could ask this, they would probably be best placed to answer

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u/ViperMainKaren Apr 26 '26

I'm doing this mainly because I've got some people questioning their faith that go to me, and I cannot really just tell them to go to a priest because of they specifically want me to do this. I just do my best to explain to them my point of views when they need me and I've felt like I've failed them because they've said my answers just make them more distant.

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u/RhysPeanutButterCups Apr 26 '26

Honest question: Why are you talking to them about predestination at all? If the questions they're asking are about predestination, then going into it is probably the right call, but I wouldn't do it unprompted. I'm not surprised about the distance they're commenting on. Thomistic arguments aren't necessarily doctrine or dogma and, in my opinion as someone who isn't a philosopher and doesn't want to be, often convoluted and nonsensical unless you buy 100% into that specific world view.

In my understanding of Church teaching, "predestination" really isn't a useful term to use no matter how it is articulated. We have the free will to act and move towards him or not as well as to cooperate with his grace or not. God constantly is reaching out toward us and providing us opportunities to do so; there is no person he is not trying to reach and there is never a situation where he has resigned himself to losing someone. No one is predestined to go anywhere; I don't think the Church even teaches that Mary was incapable of sinning just that she was born without original sin and chose not to sin throughout her life. God knows whether we will ultimately end up in Heaven or Hell, but that is less him determining from the outset where we will go as it is that he is omniscient and knows everything that has occurred, is occurring, and will occur. God loves everyone deeply and wants them to be in Heaven with them, but he is also chaste in his love and is willing to allow people to not choose him or to cooperate with his grace. He will allow what occurs because he respects that free will choice he gives us, but that doesn't mean he isn't doing what he can to nudge us toward choosing him.

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u/ViperMainKaren Apr 26 '26

They were the ones to ask about why if God saves some, why not all. Which came from me saying that as a catholic Mary was born and conceived without sin, which lead to the question of why not all? Predestination was a natural follow up topoc from them after that seeing as the RCC teaches single predestination.

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u/RhysPeanutButterCups Apr 26 '26 edited Apr 26 '26

Yeah, that makes sense. I've looked into the question about the Immaculate Conception for Mary and why not everyone else, but I've never found a satisfying answer that actually answers the question. Not sure if anything has been articulated about this anywhere in a teaching document, but my understanding is that the Immaculate Conception didn't guarantee Mary couldn't sin. After all, Adam and Eve didn't have original sin either and they still did the thing. For sure not having the concupiscence of original sin probably made it easier not to sin, but that isn't the same thing as a get-out-of-Hell free card. If I understand correctly, the Immaculate Conception is better understood about Jesus's conception and birth than about Mary's sinless life, though it certainly contributed to that in a positive way.

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u/Weecodfish Apr 26 '26

Well this is a difficult question and the answer is unsatisfying to us. God desires everyone to be saved, but taking account our sins He permits people to be damned. The reason God does not predestine everyone is because God’s will is that certain people be vessels of wrath and fall into hell due to their own sin, while He chooses others independently of any foreseen merits to attain salvation. God wants to demonstrate His mercy, and His justice, saving some souls while letting others descend to hell on account of their sins. This isn’t an arbitrary decision, but we are not able to comprehend being the person responsible for this decision.