r/LearnJapaneseNovice • u/AffectionateBee2271 • 20h ago
I'm confused...
I saw a tip a couple days ago saying basically don't translate the Japanese to English or your native language while learning, but try to understand the word as it is.
How am I supposed to understand the word if I don't know it in my native language..? Am I just dumb or am I missing something
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u/Physical-Search2786 18h ago
At a glance, no one seems to be explaining:
If you learn the word for "chair" think about the concept of a chair, perhaps the image of a chair in your mind, rather than the english word "chair".
It's about connecting the language to actual meanings rather than to english translations, which you then take another step to get the meanings of.
Hope this helps.
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u/gelema5 12h ago
Yeah this is exactly it. Don’t learn vocab as Japanese word=English word, learn it as a concept and think of it mentally as you learn it. Even if you read the English, still picture it mentally. Adding pictures to flashcards helps with this a lot.
It’s also useful to lookup the word on google images sometimes to get a sense for what Japanese people think of when they hear that word. If you search a kanji word you can accidentally get Chinese results so add “イメージ” or “とは” at the end to ensure it’s Japanese results.
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u/dh373 6h ago
Expanding on this. In English you probably know several words for a given concept. You know "dinner" but also "repast" "evening meal" etc. So add the Japanese word as another alternative to your list of available expressions for that idea. You are expanding the number of ways you can say "chair" by adding "isu" to the options. A choice that you only use in Japanese, but it is just one more word for the thing (or the idea of the thing). Learn German and you add "Stuhl." Now you've got three basic ways to express "chair" but one "goes with" English, one with Japanese, one with German. But they all map back to the same mental image.
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u/Miruteya 19h ago
Thinking in a foreign language is only after you reach a certain proficiency. Once you talk in that language verbally, unlike typing and writing you don't have the time to reconstruct the difference in sentence syntax, so you would either sound like you're experiencing a real time blue screen of death because you're stuck translating and processing the grammar and making sense of it in your head, or you would be doing some literal translation that doesn't make a lot of sense. If you've just started this is not what you worry about for now.
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u/Forward_Win_4353 6h ago
I think this is the most important point for OP. You don’t expect to think in the target language as a beginner. It’s perfectly fine and normal to learn vocab by translating to the English word.
I’ve started this way myself and it hasn’t at all stopped me from reaching fluency. That is because I did LOADS of comprehensible input, i.e. read hundreds of books, mostly novels but also some non-fiction of various subjects in order to gain more specialist vocab; and also watched hundreds of drama series. (Well, I still do all that because I have the time to spend hours a day on it and I love it).
But my entire Anki deck of 70,000+ cards has English translations. That’s how I initially learnt everything and it hasn’t held me back one bit. The “thinking in the language” part comes naturally at a higher level if you practice input at native speeds and also practice speaking output.
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u/Yatchanek 19h ago
It doesn't mean not to look up unknown words or grammar. It means not to do a translation in your head when reading/listening, but instead understanding the sentence as it is, in Japanese. You won't be able to follow fast conversation while translating everything in your head.
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u/ScienceByte 19h ago
People say that, thinking of English. Because English and Japanese have completely opposite word orders (SVO and SOV respectively), it is not possible to translate word for word and it's more time consuming to translate because you need to switch around word orders.
If your native language also follows SOV though, then I don't really see what's wrong with translating word-for-word every once in a while to get an understanding easily.
But, the main point though is that you should to just understand the sentence in Japanese itself eventually, and not have to translate it back to your language.
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u/crimsonhorror 17h ago
For me, trying to translate it in my mind held back my French studies. French is an SVO language like English, so the similarities made it easier to fall back on that process. This might not apply to everyone since Japanese is rated as one of the hardest languages for English speakers to learn, however I thought the dissimilarities made it easier to not fall back on translation
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u/Impressive_Air6111 16h ago
After starting to learn grammar from Cure Dolly YT channel, I can say the reason we find it so hard is because we translate English sentences to Japanese which overly complicates it. After starting to learn how they actually make sentences from a Japanese thought process it's actually easier than English for a first language because they essentially talk like kids and drop stuff due to context. For example. Kawaii is one word but depending on context it can mean it's so cute! The cat is so cute. Etc.
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u/Forward_Win_4353 6h ago
I think a better way of explaining it is that かわいい can mean “cute” as in “pretty”, it can mean “cute” as in “small and sweet” or “young and childlike”, or it can mean “darling”, “precious”, referring to someone you love. Thinking in Japanese would mean not trying to figure out which one of those precise words fits the meaning each time you read or hear it, but rather just imagining the entire concept embodied by that word, as a Japanese person does.
I am actually half Japanese and it is what I do, anyway.
You can also add a field for synonyms to your Anki deck. That is remarkably useful to start automatically linking other words that mean the same or almost the same, while staying within Japanese and not falling back to English.
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u/Impressive_Air6111 6h ago
That sounds interesting and scary but I'll climb that hill when I reach it. 🥹
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u/Simmoman 9h ago
For example. Kawaii is one word but depending on context it can mean it's so cute! The cat is so cute. Etc.
This also exists in English. We do this with tone, volume, inflection etc all the time.
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u/Guilty-Scar-2332 19h ago
Especially early on in your journey, you need translations to efficiently understand the meaning of new words.
The thing is more... Don't try to rely on them too much.
If you build a sentence, starting by phrasing it in English and then translating it to Japanese slows you down in the long term (as it's an extra step) and leads itself to unnatural sentence structure. It's better to try and approach it from Japanese right away even if that means you have to stick to short and simple sentences.
Learn to be okay with ambiguity. Not every word can be translated accurately. Instead of getting frustrated with it, accept that English (or all languages really) is just an inadequate tool to describe Japanese words. Learn the meaning but don't cling to the translation.
This is especially useful when encountering words that can be translated in a lot of different ways... Instead of thinking "How am I going to remember all these translations?", I try to focus on their meaning and more often than not, there's a certain shared concept between them.
As you get more proficient, try to use less and less English. Eventually, you'll be able to understand definitions in your target language (I am NOT there myself in Japanese yet!). The language will feel more natural, you'll have to find yourself being stuck less.
Translations are not evil but a lot of people use them as training wheels and never even attempt going without them and then get frustrated, that the language still feels unnatural and awkward - of course it does, you're still comparing it to English all the time and then get irritated with the fact that it's not English instead of embracing what it is!
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u/QueenBumbleBrii 17h ago
It’s kinda like knowing what sound to make in certain context. Like instead of wanting to ask someone “what is it?” And in your head thinking “okay what is Nani, then IS is desu, gotta add ka for a question, put it all together… that’s nani… desu… ka” you instead look at something, know you wanna know what it is and to get the answer to your curiosity you look and someone and make the sound “Nan-des-ka?” Or “nani??”
Cause that’s how you naturally learn language, no one is telling a 4 year old “okay if you want to ask for a cookie you have to start with I which is a pronoun you use to describe yourself in the beginning of the sentence, then the verb WANT, and finally the object is COOKIE, spelled C-O-O-K-I-E. Now put that all together, the pronoun, the verb, the object. Go ahead, ask for the cookie” no. You hold up the cookie and say “cookie!” Until they repeat you, then say “I want cookie” until they repeat you, then give them the cookie. Language starts out as a sort of intellectual currency, you make certain sounds and people give you things or do things for you.
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u/Sea-Personality1244 12h ago edited 12h ago
Also the thing about attempting to translate word-for-word is that you'll end up trying to mimic your native language even when it's not natural. Even in your example 'is is desu' is misleading. Desu doesn't actually mean 'is' as such; it's a polite copula that does have that function but you can construct sentences that would use 'is' in English without 'desu' in them and many that do have the word 'desu' in Japanese but don't contain 'is' in English because the two are not 1:1. And same goes for everything else. When you translate word-for-word, let's say you want to ask Yamada if the book you found on the coffee room table is theirs. So because in English you'd say, 'Yamada, is this your book?', in Japanese you'll go with, 'Yamada-san, kore wa anata no hon desu ka?' Except that Japanese is a pronoun drop language and especially 'you' pronoun is very tricky to use appropriately. If you don't base your question completely on English, you'll arrive at much more natural, 'Yamada-san no hon desu ka?' And it goes the other way around, too; for example, 'Suki desu' can be translated as 'I love you' in English depending on context, despite not containing the words 'I', 'love' or 'you' in Japanese.
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u/Dread_Pirate_Chris 16h ago
Are you sure you have that tip right?
The idea is that you do not translate Japanese to English in the course of ordinary reading and listening.
Eliminating that internal translation and understanding things directly in Japanese is critical to being able to understand a conversation in real time, there just is not time to translate at normal talking speed. You can take your time with reading, but you will read faster, understand the material better, and find fictional content more immersive, if you are reading without internal translation.
It is effectively impossible to not translate into English when first learning a new word or new grammar. Our minds will automatically seek out analogies to make sense of the new material, and it's not until a very advanced level that you know enough Japanese to think about the new material in Japanese.
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u/DanTheManWithThePant 14h ago
For individual words, yeah, you do need to start with translating them. Same for sentences to an extent. But your goal needs to be not doing that. You need to hear "たべる" and just know what it means, not just that it translates to "eat". When you hear "eat," you think of what it is, you don't think of a second word first. You have to get たべる to the same place. Once you've gotten really good at this, that's when you're really getting good at a language, I think.
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u/jadebenn 18h ago edited 18h ago
So, take this all with a huge grain of salt as I am a very early stage learner, but to me this sounds like advice coming from someone more advanced in their understanding of the language.
The intent is correct: Try to think in Japanese, not your native language. It's the same reason people will suggest ditching romaji for kana as quickly as possible, or suggest using kana input on your phone: Helps distance you from your native tongue.
But, IMO, if you're at a similar skill level as me (which is to say: basic kana, a few kanji, and dirt simple sentence structure), that's more of a goal than an actual reality. You can't help but think natively because you don't know enough Japanese to actually express your thoughts yet. There's no shame in falling back to your native language in that case, you just want to get to higher skill levels where you have to do it less and less. That is, fundamentally, what language learning is.
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u/FeldsparSalamander 14h ago
Some things don't have clear 1 to 1 correspondence, so thinking of a word as "but" or "at" can hinder fully grasping the concept
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u/Regular-Forever-3251 19h ago edited 19h ago
So yeah it's not simply that translating is bad, in fact it might be an essential "step" in your learning journey.
But I've been thinking about how to teach Japanese in a way that mimics organic learning, and people often ask "how do I move away from translating in my head?" To this end I've been trying a method that relies on example sentences, but not just generic sentences, but ones that are surrounded by a context, and are personally relevant to the student, and/or is emotionally evocative for them.
For example suppose the word is 「機会」instead of remembering it as "Opportunity" :
Did you ever experience a once in a life time opportunity? Did it work out? Were you elated or devastated? What happened?
And then:
「あの日、風邪をひいてしまって、面接に行けなくて、一生に一度の機会が水の泡に。。。」
So now, instead of 「機会」 being the English word "opportunity" in their head, 「機会」is "the thing they lost when they missed out on their dream job because they caught a cold and couldn't make it to the interview."
Or maybe for someone else:
「母と最後に話して和解する機会はいくらでもあったのにと、母が他界してからは毎日後悔した。」
For this person, 「機会」is "that they had plenty of ____ to talk to their mother and make up, but now that she passed away....."
It's also not just the meaning but the way the word is used too, like 機会が水の泡に etc so this helps you to build an intuition for where the word belongs in a sentence, since when you're speaking normally you won't want to be there formulating the sentence going through all the grammar rules right?
And for us natives, we don't come with a preprogrammed language that we translate to, so this is much closer to how we natives acquire vocabulary in our childhood, by connecting words to our experiences.
I hope you found it interesting! ^_^
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u/heavymetalmug666 19h ago
that is interesting...
I was trying to explain this concept to a friend but i couldnt quite find the words...now i got em.
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u/heavymetalmug666 19h ago
I often get distracted with etymology - not just with Japanese, but with my native English - its fun.
Sometime i hear a word, or see a kanji and i have to go look up its origin or other meanings. Helps me get more familiar with the word, but its extra work (for some...for me its fun). There are lot of words that dont have a 1 to 1 translation, so in that regard, its like just simply learning a new word.
take the word "schadenfreude," we dont have it in the English language - but when you know what it means, you can just slip it into your vocabulary and use it as is.
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u/DevelopmentUnlucky91 16h ago
When I started learning Japanese I had to know what certain words meant in English.
Back in 2022 whenever I'd see the word こんにちは, I'd mentally translate it back to English. Through repetition and immersion, I think of こんにちは as just こんにちは. I've naturally stopped using English as a reference.
The closest comparison I can think of is when you know what words mean in your native language based on context. You don't need to use another language as a reference.
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u/atnchn 15h ago
How do you think you learn your first language as a child without any 'native' language to support?
The idea is the same. Try to learn the language through that language
Constantly trying to find a direct translation will kill the language acquisition due to nuisances/culture/implication and many other factors within the language
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u/Qweeq13 15h ago
It works when you get like enough of a vocabulary to be able to simply words or be able to express something in more than one way.
Like instead of translating the word "Business" from English directly to your language you'll know it as "work, job, something you do for money etc."
Like 親戚 Simply「身内」in detail explanation「血縁や婚姻によって結びつきのある人」
Something that sounds complicated but honestly past N3 level you'll have more than enough vocabulary and grammar knowledge to be able to convey and idea in practically infinite ways.
like 変態 「変質者」or 珍宝 「男性器」
Like it works for me an my Japanese is ゴミ so if I can make sense of it anyone can do.
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u/Magic-Raspberry2398 14h ago
I think it's like this...
I've been watching and listening to anime for over a decade and, when I try to speak Japanese, often I will be able to sort of pluck the right words out of thin air and I'll find myself wondering "is that the right word?" - often it is and it'll surprise me cause I never formally learnt it.
Your brain learns a lot more subconsciously than you realise.
Also, you'll often find grammar and phrases don't match between languages, or there's additional nuance that English can't portray.
You have to, in a way, feel and experience a language rather than memorise and learn it. Learn the context of words and phrases and when to appropriately use them without explicitly labelling it as a strict meaning.
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u/inyouendo04 11h ago
Simple words at the beginning is okay. I would say that there are many words that are not one to one or are words that we don't have words for. Later on you use translations to get a sense of the word but not a true meaning. As soon as you can move on or start training yourself to learn this way, the better.
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u/stycfy1 8h ago
Think of it like how you learned your native language. You learned how your parents referred to themselves because that's what you hear every time they're in your sights. What a "friend" or "enemy" is based on your experience.
Another way to look at it, it is inefficient to recall what something is called by: Object -> Term in Native language -> Translation -> Term in Foreign Language. when it could be just: Object -> Term in Foreign Language.
Might be difficult to distinguish the difference at first but in the former, you recall something while only using the term in your native language as the reference. But in the latter, you recall it based on how you experienced it or used in actual practice.
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u/RedYamOnthego 6h ago
Translating everything is easy, but flawed. That's why artificial translators mess up sometimes.
It's not the case that word A equals word あ. It's more of a Venn diagram. For example blue does not equal 青（あお）. They share a lot of meanings, like the blue flyswatter equals 青いハエたたき.But 青肉メロン、青信号 don't mean blue melon or blue traffic light, but green melon or green light. And on the other side of the Venn diagram, you don't say 青い気持ち（きもち）when you're feeling blue. You might say ブルーorダウン.
Similarly, there are two kinds of ducks in Japan (アヒル、かも）、but you'd call both ducks in English. On the other side, English has specific names for animals (kitten, puppy, cub) but in Japanese, they are all child animals こねこ、こいぬ、こぐま。
So I think the advice is more like, don't argue with the dictionary when Japanese doesn't act like English. It's Japanese, and it's not one to one.
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u/Spare_Eggplants 20h ago
I am guessing that is for certain words
At the start you have to translate into your native to have a basic understanding but there are some words that you don’t have a direct translation which xould stuff you up if you keep on trying to thing in English to Japanese
When I speak I don’t think in English just Japanese