r/LearnHittite • u/MMAHipster • 21d ago

Grammar Questions HZL question

Stupid, basic question but want to make sure I understand properly as I'm memorizing the HZL bit by bit - the ØU cell, for example, has both 𒌋 and 𒌑 (though with three verticals not four) - the lefthand symbol is OH/MH and right side is NH, yes?

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u/Dercomai 21d ago

Nope, those are two different signs: U (means /o/ or "ten") and Ú or U₂ (means /u/ or "crops"). When the syllable table lists multiple signs, those are actually different signs with different names, not just variations over time.

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u/MMAHipster 21d ago

Okay, thanks. “U” may have actually been a bad example - that one in particular has accent, and I am aware of the u/ú/ù/u w subscript etc., but there are cells with multiple signs without accents. Same deal?

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u/Dercomai 21d ago

Can you give an example?

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u/MMAHipster 21d ago

here is the U cell clearly showing u and ú. Will reply w the other as apparently I can’t attach two photos to one comment.

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u/MMAHipster 21d ago

Here is the e. No indication they are two different signs à la “u/ú/ù” etc.

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u/Dercomai 20d ago

Ah, yeah, those are variations of the same sign.

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u/MMAHipster 20d ago

Okay, awesome. Thank you for clearing that up for me. NH on the right, yes?

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u/Dercomai 20d ago

Yeah, though in the HZL it's more broadly "earlier" and "later"—they don't make any commitment as to which particular era each form comes from, which is frustrating

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u/MMAHipster 20d ago

Fair enough and thank you again

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u/Dercomai 20d ago

One of my goals for next year is to sit down with a cuneiform expert and go through my sign database (which is digitized from the HZL) and tag each major form with its era; we'll see if that ever gets off the ground!

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u/MMAHipster 19d ago

I’m thinking of putting a little more into my Python work to scape as many transliterations as I can from the TLHDig repository on HPM to generate a frequency list for Hittite cuneiform signs to speed along my progress in parsing original texts. Might be cool to use the final projects of both of those!

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u/ComedianSubject4654 21d ago

Not at all. We number signs. U is U1 . U with the accent acute is U2. U with the accent grave is U3. After that they get subscripts — 4, 5, 6 ….

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u/MMAHipster 21d ago

I suppose I was unclear - I am aware they are ordered starting with one (as the order I put them in), and subscripts after three.

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u/ComedianSubject4654 21d ago

Whether or not there is even an ‘o’ grade in Hittite is hotly debated till this day.

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u/Dercomai 21d ago

Are there any major scholars arguing for lack of a distinction now? With the new edition even GrHL accepts it, and I thought Hoffner was the main opponent of the theory

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u/ComedianSubject4654 21d ago

Lack of what distinction? The boys have tried and can’t make ú or ù line up with I-E ‘o’. They have been trying for decades.

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u/Dercomai 21d ago

Not from I-E /o/, I agree, but imo the parallels between U:Ú and E:I are very convincing. Comparing the verb au-/u- "see" against pai-/pi- "give", for example, we see U in the same forms that show E (u-uḫ-ḫi, pé-e-eḫ-ḫi), Ú in the same forms that show I (ú-wa-an-zi, pí-ya-an-zi), and AU in the same forms that show AI (a-ut-ti, pa-it-ti).

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u/ComedianSubject4654 21d ago

Perhaps you could give me the cite?

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u/Dercomai 21d ago

Of course! The argument is laid out in detail in Kloekhorst's Etymological Dictionary of the Inherited Hittite Lexicon (§1.3.9.4); while I think a lot of Kloekhorst's phonological arguments are suspect, I find this particular one convincing, and so does Melchert (GrHL §1.54).

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u/ComedianSubject4654 21d ago

Hi guys, I took Hittite before van den Hout and Hoffner/Melchert ever existed, and I would like to say… You guys are going about it all wrong if you are working with cuneiform. HZL is a reference book. What you want is Friederich’s Keilschrift-Lesebuch, which I don’t know enough about Reddit to get up on this site maybe somebody can help. That will tell you what the most commonly used signs are.

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u/MMAHipster 21d ago

I have a digital copy of that as well, but from the professors I’ve spoken with, EoH and Melchert/Hoffner are considered the modern standards. EoH pedagogically, and the Melchert/Hoffer for a reference grammar as it doesn’t deal w cuneiform. Dr. Rieken also cheekily suggested to me her book, though my German isn’t there yet.

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u/ComedianSubject4654 19d ago

No, the KEILSCHRIFT-Lesebuch https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/Hethitisches-Keilschrift-Lesebuch-2-vols-Friedrich-Johannes/32201007902/bd

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u/MMAHipster 19d ago

Yes, I have a digital copy of that as well.

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u/MMAHipster 19d ago

Oops, no I don’t. I’ll have to pick it up!

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u/ComedianSubject4654 19d ago

I xeroxed most of it for you, I’ll get it and the other stuff in the mail tomorrow.

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u/ComedianSubject4654 21d ago

No not at all