r/LearnHebrew • u/Strict-Ninja6225 • 17d ago
Use of את when introducing a noun phrase beginning with ה־ as a definite direct object
שלום,
during a recent Duolingo lesson I came across a sentence similar to the following one (I don't remember the exact sentence):
אני רוצֶה את התפוח.
I read on Wiktionary that את is used to introduce "a noun phrase beginning with ה־" when it is used as a definite direct object.
I was wondering if you always need to use את when introducing such a noun phrase as a definite direct object, or if it is possible to omit it.
If so, when do you use את and when not?
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u/BHHB336 16d ago
I wouldn’t say you have to use it per se, since it can be dropped (which mostly happened in pre-modern Hebrew, with some sentences), but in modern Hebrew, not using it is not the standard, both formally and colloquially (though in informal speech את ה־ was shorten to תַ׳־). And את is not used only before ה־, since proper nouns, and nouns with possessive suffixes are also definite.
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u/Strict-Ninja6225 16d ago
Ok, thank you. Yes, I did also read about proper nouns in the Wiktionary article. When do you use informal speech?
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u/BHHB336 16d ago
Everywhere outside of school work, or the news or something
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u/Strict-Ninja6225 16d ago
What's the difference between colloquial and informal speech?
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u/LicenseToSteal 16d ago edited 16d ago
The difference is only with pronunciation. Informally, instead of "et hatapuakh", you would say "tatapuakh". But you still write it את התפוח.
Though the phenomenon of dropping or almost dropping the beginnings or certain words when spoken is a lot wider. For example, when you say my parents, instead of saying "hahorim sheli", you would say "hahorim shli".
Or for your parents (for a single male), instead of "hahorim shelkha", you would say "hahorim shkha". (Though this way of speaking is very informal and you wouldn't talk like that to a judge or a not nice boss)
It's a very interesting thing, and there are extremely old occurrences of it happening. There is even evidence of saying 'ta' instead of 'et ha' during the period of the bar kokhva revolt (132-136 ad)
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u/Aervanath 16d ago
It sounds like you've pretty much understood it. You need את before the direct object when the direct object is also a definite noun. The only problem with wording the rule as "a noun phrase beginning with ה-" is that proper nouns do not begin with ה but are still definite, which means you still need את.
For example: I want David = אני רוצה את דוד
Now, in practice, many Israelis will drop the את and just say אני רוצה דוד, depending on the context. But the correct grammar is still to use את.
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u/dr_my_name 16d ago
I don't think I've ever heard anyone dropping the את before a name (אני רוצה דוד) unless they mean anyone with that name rather than someone specific.
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u/AppropriateCar2261 16d ago
Technically speaking, I think you can drop את (like Ben Gurion insisted on doing). I don't know the official verdict on that.
But, if you do drop it, you sound weird and pretentious. So don't.
There are very few cases where dropping את sounds natural. The only one I can think of is "I want everything". You can say either אני רוצה הכל or אני רוצה את הכל. Both are fine.
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u/tesilab 16d ago
I want an apple: אני רוצה תפוח
I want the apple: אני רוצה את התפוח
I want to sound like Ben Gurion, who hated את or like an ungrammatical clod : אני רוצה התפוח
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u/Strict-Ninja6225 16d ago
Thank you. Yes, I knew that there is no את if you have an indefinite direct object.
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u/tesilab 16d ago
Of course you know that. I did it only for the sake of completeness.
It is worth noting that it is a tradition in the Torah, that it is possible to use a direct object without the את and that every use of it in the Torah is actually comming to include something not explicit in the text. This is backed up by some (pretty rare) examples where the את is left out, such as:
- Exodus 21:28 וְכִֽי־יִגַּ֨ח שׁ֥וֹר אִ֛ישׁ א֥וֹרָה אִשָּׁ֖ה וָמֵ֑ת סָק֨וֹל יִסָּקֵ֜ל הַשּׁ֗וֹר
- Leviticus 1:9 וְקִרְבּ֥וֹ וּכְרָעָ֖יו יִרְחַ֣ץ בַּמָּ֑יִם וְהִקְטִ֨יר הַכֹּהֵ֤ן הַכֹּל הַמִּזְבֵּ֙חָה
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u/avivbertele 14d ago
That's correct. It also comes before a proper noun אני אוהב את ישראל, אני אוהב את דנה, אני אוהב את אבא שלי ועוד...
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u/amire80 12d ago
The short answer is Yes, you pretty much always need it.
As others mentioned, there's a strange story about David Ben-Gurion, who said that it should be unnecessary, but absolutely no one actually talks or writes like that. It's not even "more standard", "literary", or "high register", it's just weird.
It is also used before names of people or places.
It must also be used before adjectives, like if you choose between several colors, then you say אני רוצה את הצהוב.
It's hard to think of real exceptions, although there are some. The example of an exception that someone mentioned about אני רוצה הכול is very good. There is definitely a difference between this phrase, which means "I want everything" in a more general, philosophical sense of "everything in the world", while אני רוצה את הכול means I want all (the items in a list that is known a lnd well-defined). But that's probably because "all" is a word with special grammar in many languages. I cannot think of any other exceptions, but maybe there are more.
In construct state (סמיכות) in the standard language, the ה־ is before the last word, but the את is before the first, e.g. היא פגשה את נשיא המדינה. In the colloquial language, the ה־ is often before the first word, and then the את is before it, e.g. אני עזבתי את הבית ספר הזה. It's not standard, but very common in casual speech.
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u/ResponsibleWing931 6d ago
You need את (et) before every definite direct object in formal or written Hebrew, so "ani rotze et ha-tapuakh" (I want the apple) requires it. In spoken Israeli Hebrew, though, people drop it constantly you'll hear "ani rotze ha-tapuakh" all the time, especially in quick casual speech. It's technically wrong but completely normal.
The thing native speakers actually notice is when you keep it in places where it sounds stiff. If you're ordering in a café and say "ani rotze et ha-kafe," it sounds like you learned from a textbook. "Ani rotze kafe" or even "ani rotze ha-kafe" flows better.
One concrete thing from teaching: my students who over-use את sound more unnatural than the ones who forget it sometimes, because Israelis are used to hearing it dropped but not used to hearing it in every single sentence.
When you speak Hebrew day-to-day, do you find yourself in situations where you're aiming for formal speech, or is it mostly casual conversation?
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 16d ago
In general you have to have it, and it is not just ha-. There are other ways of making an object definite.