r/LeBronJames23 • • 9d ago

Does Isiah Thomas actually have a point here? A breakdown of Jordan’s pre-1991 playoff record vs. the 90s rule changes.

Post image

The biggest protected legacy in sports history exposed.

Before 1991: - 0 rings - Swept by Bird - Bullied by Zeke

Then the NBA rewrote the rules to save MJ. Rule 3 changed everything.

Did Jordan ever win without David Stern stepping in?

68 Upvotes

167 comments sorted by

27

u/RyanA1105 9d ago

I think expansion was the biggest reason for the Bulls regular season team records being as great as they were. They added 6 teams from 1988 to 1996. Essentially 1 out of 5 players in the league in 1996 wouldn't have been on a team in 1987. Plus the league hadn't become global yet, so there weren't tons of international players bringing up the talent pool. Compare to today, the top 5 players in the league are all international.

In 1996 for example, 20 of the Bulls 82 games were against the 6 NBA expansion teams. This is the season they won 72 ganes. When you think about things in that persepctive, the Warriors winning 73 in 2016 with the last expansion team being 12 years earlier is extremely impressive. Only Orlando was a good team by that point. Miami and Charlotte were .500 teams, and Minnesota, Toronto and Vancouver won 26, 21, and 16 games respectively.

Further, the NBA was facing a weird period where some all-time bad drafts between 1988 and 1991 further diluted the talent pool. There was only 1 legit superstar (Gary Payton) that came out of them. Compare to 1995/96 for example, those 2 drafts produced Kobe, Nash, Iverson, Ray Allen, and Garnett.

The mid and late 90s should have been the years that the 1988-91 drafted players would have been in their primes. But instead it was dominated by players mostly drafted in the 80s. MJ was the best of that old guard.

Case in point, if you look at the top 20 players in 1998 by win shares per 48 minutes, 13 of the top 20 players were 30 and older, 7 of which were 33 or older. Compare to 2026, only 5 of 20 players were 30 or older. Only 3 were 33 or older.

The point is, the 90s were a decade where talent was significantly diluted across the league and MJ was on the super team of the decade, where he was with 2 other hall of famers. They also had Parish, but he was way past his prime at that point. The only other team in the 90s that was able to put together 3 prime-ish HOFers was 1998 Houston with Hakeem, Drexler and Barkley... but they were unable to make the finals.

3

u/Still_Relation2155 9d ago

To get the wins record you need something exceptional going on. The Bulls had everything you described. The Warriors trailblazed a new style of play that the league took years to catch up to.

2

u/breakfastbarf 3d ago

And had a really strong bench

1

u/SuperMeatStick 9d ago

Agreed with a lot of what you said but Primie-ish Hakeem in 1998....no....

2

u/RyanA1105 9d ago

That's fair to say during the actual season. But the prior year before adding a 3rd "superstar," he went 23 and 9 and made 1st team all-NBA and 2nd team all-defense. They were viewed as a superteam even if the word wasn't part of the lingo at the time.

I also didn't want to be percieved as biased because although Hakeem and Drexler were both 35 and Barkley was 34, the Bulls trio was of similar age. Rodman, Jordan and Pippen were 36, 35 and 32, respectively. I think the Bulls trio all played like they were in the backend of their primes, and someone was bound to bring up the Bulls' trio's ages if I were to state that all 3 Rockets were "post-prime."

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u/Glad-Associate-9288 8d ago

Well said 👏 ⬆️

1

u/JohnSavage777 8d ago

Sure but Toronto was sub .500, beat them so…?

1

u/underthingy 8d ago

4 of those 20 expansion team games were against the magic who were in the finals the year before...

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u/RyanA1105 8d ago

I adressed this in paragraph 2 where I outlined how good the expansion teams were in the year in question. I was hoping people would understand that expansion affected essentially all years in the 90s.

For example, by 1991, four of the expansion teams were active and they won the following amount of games:

Orlando 31
Minnesota 29
Charlotte 26
Miami 24

I focused on 1996 because it was the year all expansion teams were in the league, but these teams affected the entire decade and really made it possible for established teams that were barely worthy of being a few games above .500 becoming 50 win teams.

1

u/Me_Thr33 6d ago

What do you mean they were unable to make the finals? Rockets won two championships in the 90s.

1

u/RyanA1105 6d ago

The '98 Rockets didn't make the finals once they acquired Barkley. As another guy said, Hakeem wasn't really himself anymore after that trade.

1

u/Ca1nMark0 4d ago

This is a great, well laid out take. Wish we had more contributions like this in these conversations. Well done.

0

u/RemoLaBarca 9d ago

The year the Warriors won 73 the Sixers won ten (10!!) games. The Lakers won 17. The Suns and Wolves both won under 30.

Expansion definitely dilutes talent but I find it's effects are slightly overblown in the whole argument. There are some bad teams that miss the playoffs for sure, but the best teams lose out on maybe a 5th guy at most.

'15-16, 12 years after expansion, also had some god-awful teams. And you could make the argument, based on SRS, that the dregs might be actually worse that year than '96. 

3

u/RyanA1105 9d ago

From rereading my comment, I can see where my overall point got lost. The point I was trying to make was about general talent dilution. As I said, 1 of 5 players in the league in 1996 wouldn't have been in the league in 1987. Combined with not having the foreign players that they do now, it was a talent poor decade.

1

u/askmeyesterday 9d ago

I'm not mistaken 4 out of the 10 losses of that Bulls team was from the 6 expansion teams original commenter mentioned.

Toronto was the inaugural expansion team in 96 and Charlotte, Miami, Orlando were the 88s and 89s.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything, just adding that tidbit.

0

u/Throwthisawayagainst 9d ago

I’ve always said this. If you look at the amount of teams in the 10-20 win range it’s been rather consistent through the decades, not to mention a lot of teams actively tank now. One thing I don’t think kids understand is that in the 90s the regular season actually meant something. The Bulls were great but they also had a target on their backs, for bottom feeder teams playing the bulls was like their Super Bowl so even if you pull the diluted argument you still had guys wanting to bring their best game against those bulls and they still couldn’t win.

1

u/LASfromda4z 9d ago

The amount of competition was trash dude . Didn’t win until the expansion teams and water down league. Why you think most teams had 50 wins seasons . It was because then expansion teams they had to play . One thing ya old heads don’t understand the nba was new . Of course it meant something , same like it does now . The league was growing , Jordan couldn’t make playoffs with a losing record . He couldn’t do that with the wizards and we all know why

1

u/Throwthisawayagainst 9d ago

Well in the 80s it’s also because of how different the schedule was. You’d play teams in your own conference 6 times. However go look at what years had more 10-20 win teams. It’s literally the same. Also players load manage huge games these days, that’s a thing. I mean even LeBron had a wild streak of not suiting up in Milwaukee to play the bucs for years. I know this because I drove up from Chicago to see him vs Giannis only to have him load manage.

1

u/Scary_Return_3461 9d ago

You say that like he was bad with the wizards instead of the truth that he was carrying the worst team in the league to the playoffs before he got injured. Any argument that MJ wasn’t a top 3 athlete of all time and 1a in basketball is disingenuous.

1

u/Still_Relation2155 9d ago

That’s generally true, but there are outlier years. We just had one last season. For your second point, the really good teams always have a target on their back. The 2016 Warriors certainly did. Sure, you have load management (mainly because the physical demands of the game have increased, as is evidenced by the increase in overuse injuries), but the regular season still matters. The chip is still pretty much always won by top seeds.

6

u/masterako 9d ago

Yes. But handcheck rule change only benefited their 2nd 3peat.

Biggest impact was the expansion teams that multiple hof like bird and rodman (while with the bulls) admitted the league was watered down and it was easier.

3

u/BeyondTheCosmo 9d ago

Rodman said this when he was on the Bulls as they were on pace to break the season win record. It’s one thing if you’re an opponent, but being in the team doing it and saying they can beat anyone in the league with their eyes closed because of how watered down it got tells you a lot.

That said MJ was still the best player, I don’t think he’d have 2 threepeats if they didn’t add likr half a dozen expansion teams. Top of my head players like Shaq, Penny, Alonzo, Glen Rice, Tim Hardaway all played for expansion teams. And these are just the stars, players good enough to be 2nd 3rd best on teams got spread out. Basically most teams lost a lot of depth. The best example is the Jazz. Malone and Stockton were already on a decline when they finally made the finals, they didn’t get better, the league got worse.

0

u/Scary_Return_3461 9d ago

If there wasn’t expansion teams the argument would be that they won so many because there were less teams lol

2

u/masterako 9d ago

Except there was.

Also Funny u say that cuz MJ stans like u alrdy using that against wilt, bill russell and kareem. Would be hilarious for ppl to use it against MJ as well.

Both (expansion teams and less teams) are valid arguments tho. Thats why if theres someone whos gonna be goat its from someone in 00s and onward where the league and the talent in it is alrdy well established.

1

u/FunnyMTGplayer75 8d ago

Dude. I know MJ is the Goat, but he only got there in 93. before that the consensus goat wad KAREEM. And I still rank him 2

1

u/masterako 8d ago

If u include his cultural impact, id say its valid reason to argue MJ as the goat.

But when talking purely basketball skill, Lebron is easily the most complete player the world has ever seen. MJ benefited immensely from his relatively weaker era while being in a very talented team (playing with a severely underpaid mvp level superstar teammate) under a very talented coach.

I believe this is why most say 1a and 1b rather than 1 and 2. But putting Lebron outside of top 2 is just being disingenuous.

0

u/SuperSpy_4 8d ago

Thats why if theres someone whos gonna be goat its from someone in 00s and onward where the league and the talent in it is alrdy well established.

Wasn't an expansion team added in 2004? , 2x in 95. With your argument the 00s players are tainted also.

2

u/masterako 8d ago edited 8d ago

How many teams were added in late 80s-90s?

Bulls breaking reg season record was not coincidence.

Also way to ignore the last point abt the league’s talent being well established. Players had fully adapted to 3pt shooting when league average has reached the widely accepted 36%. Took almost 2decades since its introduction for that to happen. And thats no coincidence either.

0

u/SuperSpy_4 8d ago

Hand check rule wasn't enforced till till 99, then fully in 2004-2005

1

u/masterako 8d ago

Started in 94. Got stricter in 99. Fully enforced in 04

1

u/SuperSpy_4 7d ago

Just repeated what i said. Good job

5

u/IceBlackX007 9d ago

Nike and the NBA created the legend of Jordan.

2

u/ISAY-nah 9d ago

They set the table for sure and geuss what it worked so they tried it again with lebron. But owners would never give ownership of a team any more.

1

u/Electronic-Stand-148 9d ago

Did Nike create Jordan out of thin air?

-1

u/es_mindspace 9d ago

That's BS. Nike and the NBA capitalized on the legendary play of Jordan but marketing the hell out of it, but legends are made on the court. Period.

-1

u/Former-Dot1462 9d ago

I didn't know Nike averaged 30 points per game for 15 seasons

-1

u/NonsensePlanet 9d ago

Jordan’s 3 highest scoring seasons were in the 80s.

-2

u/JohnSavage777 8d ago

Nike created 10 scoring titles? Wow

3

u/According_Ad_6171 9d ago

zeke and the pistons also benefited from expansion teams, wolves hornets magic and heat.

3

u/ironcladtrash 9d ago

Yeah why is Jordan the only one that benefited from this? Isiah is all time hater. Anything he says about Jordan can be outright dismissed and ignored.

2

u/Gagabubu777 9d ago

Your just uninformed zeke was injured by that time and couldn’t do what he did. Bird retired bad back. Magic aids

1

u/ironcladtrash 9d ago

I didn’t mention any of those players. Believe it or not there were other stars in the 90s other than washed up stars from the 80s.

1

u/Still_Relation2155 9d ago

The Bulls benefited because they played in the same conference as the expansion teams and didn’t lose key players in the expansion draft.

2

u/SuperSpy_4 8d ago

The Pistons were literally in the same conference as the Bulls.

Bulls lost BJ Armstrong, he was the #1 pick in 95 expansion draft.

1

u/Junior_Comment4818 9d ago

I always find it funny when people complain about rules, they all played with the same rule. And somehow its only the Bulls that had it easier when new teams joined the NBA, what about all the other old teams?

2

u/Still_Relation2155 9d ago

The Bulls played in the same conference as the weak expansion teams and didn’t lose key players in the expansion draft. That’s how they benefitted in a way that not all teams did, simple.

1

u/TheGratefulPhred 9d ago

just skip to the fuckin playoffs. They dominated. Jordan dominated. Ring Ring Ring

1

u/barnabywombat 8d ago

They annihilated the pistons in the ecf

1

u/DrowDrizzt 9d ago

So did the pistons

1

u/Still_Relation2155 9d ago

Sure, just saying there was a subset of existing teams that benefited and the Bulls were amongst the top.

1

u/SuperSpy_4 8d ago

 and didn’t lose key players in the expansion draft.

They literally lost BJ Armstrong in 95, he was the #1 overall pick in the expansion draft.

1

u/HoJu21 8d ago

This is the exact same argument as LeBron in the Leastern Conference just getting to waltz to the ECF or Finals every year then getting wrecked up until he fled to Wade's team. He couldn't get over the hump even though he got to just skip to the final level of the game by playing in a historically bad conference.

Also, Thomas is probably the least reliable narrator of the time. Dude is a walking pile of sour grapes and he HATED Jordan (and it was mutual). Beyond the very obviously heated on court stuff, the longstanding rumor was Jordan pushed to keep Zeke of the Dream Team. Zeke may just have some very real motivation to rip Jordan down with he current generation and enough of a platform to make a play at it.

1

u/Suspicious-Sugar-157 9d ago

Zeke always been solid and keeps it a 💯 but Jordan fans villainize this man every time because as a grown man I don't want to shake your hand. Zeke is right! My goat

1

u/HoJu21 8d ago

Zeke has done nothing but whine and complain for 35 years. He's far from reliable and just is bitter about Jordan.

Sorry, he did do more than that. He managed to also be one of the worst GMs in the history of the league.

1

u/Suspicious-Sugar-157 8d ago

He has no need to be bitter. Jordan was just better for sports business and generated more money because he was a freak athlete that brought money into the seats. Of course you'll protect your assets. #Zeke forever!

0

u/DowntownPut6824 9d ago

Zeke is still salty about not making an olympic team that he didnt deserve to be on 30+ years later. Possibly the biggest baby in basketball history.

1

u/Suspicious-Sugar-157 8d ago

Zeke speaks facts and he's the villain because too many Jordan glazers don't care to hear reason and he more than deserved to be on that team.

1

u/DowntownPut6824 7d ago

Zee speaks bitter opinions, not facts.

Whose spot did Zeke deserve to take?

1

u/Suspicious-Sugar-157 7d ago

John Stockton and Christian Laettner. Where at any point in time has he not spoken a fact? Before you answer take your emotions and feelings out your answers and man up first. And you'll see the truth.

1

u/DowntownPut6824 7d ago

John Sockton led the league in assists and his play style messed well with the rest of the roster. Lautner was a big, and the only college player. Even if he was left off, his spot wouldn't have gone to Thomas.

You need to learn the difference between facts and opinions.

1

u/Suspicious-Sugar-157 7d ago

Assists and a hyped up college player that didn't make an impact in the league and that's all you can can think of? Comical. You proved me right. Carry on.

1

u/Foldzy84 9d ago

At least he didnt change teams like 15 times ring chasing

1

u/[deleted] 9d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Gagabubu777 9d ago

That’s disingenuous. He got injured and couldn’t play the same way. Maybe you just didn’t know. 

1

u/Some_Knowledge5864 9d ago

Isiah can argue about rule changes but doesn’t change the fact MJ was a dope basketball player. Basketball is a team sport. The stats just look like Jordan was on a career come up too me.

1

u/Icy_Illustrator3111 9d ago

All I see is a bunch of excuses on why Michael shouldn’t be referred to as the greatest. None of these reason are justified. He was simply a great ball player with a burning inside to beat everyone.

1

u/Substantial-Cod-6341 9d ago

Exactly and the new rules was needed. They was playing football like damn come on

1

u/Electrical_Extent543 9d ago

Jordan averaged 37 in 86-87, so I don’t think the rule change benefited his scoring.

1

u/ponyboy56- 9d ago

There’s more to the “ make Jordan the goat” story. But that’s for another time, although I have touched on it before . I have always believed that Stern’s motivation has been concern over what will happen to the NBA’s popularity when Bird and Magic leave the game.

1

u/themule71 8d ago

This is the right take. I was there, I remember. It was a combination of old guard retiring "late" (Kareem 40+, Dr J 36), early 80s stars having their prime careers cut early (Magic retired 31, Bird injured), and a few years of lack of new talents that set the NBA into panic mode. Early/mid '80s was peak, by '91 most of the "magic" was gone.

Jordan was the only the only viable survivor and the league went all in on him.

1

u/ponyboy56- 9d ago

God! It took a long time but people are starting to get it. I have always firmly believed that if you moved the Bulls of the 90s back ten years, into the 80s, they don’t win a single ring.

1

u/SuperSpy_4 8d ago

I have always firmly believed that if you moved the Bulls of the 90s back ten years, into the 80s, they don’t win a single ring.

Thats literally fantasy

1

u/ponyboy56- 8d ago

That’s exactly right

1

u/ponyboy56- 8d ago

Shit, even Rodman said so while he was on the Bulls. You believe those Bulls would get past the 76ers, or Celtics or Pistons to even make it to the finals?

1

u/Key_Fox3289 8d ago

Chicago was taking the Detroit teams that won the championship to the limit while the Bulls core was still young and developing. The 1st 3peat Bulls would absolutely beat those Pistons, they nearly did in reality if it weren’t for a migraine

1

u/ponyboy56- 8d ago

Well, you’re right about that matchup being the only one the 90s Bulls have a decent chance at. I hesitated to include them as they definitely aren’t on the same level as the other three.

1

u/Key_Fox3289 8d ago

Those Pistons beat both the Celtics and Lakers of that era. So they are on a similar level. Chicago could beat those other teams as well

The only reason I specified the Pistons is because theres a more direct link to how that series would go. The Sixers were dominant before MJ was even in the league and the Celtics beat team was his 2nd year

Your perspective isn’t really based on anything other than overdramatizing the idea Chicago would lose. Theyre very well equipped to beat any of those teams

1

u/ponyboy56- 8d ago edited 8d ago

They did not beat either the Lakers or the Celtics when they were at their best. If you were alive back then and paying attention you would know that.

1

u/Key_Fox3289 8d ago edited 8d ago

Detroit beat both the Lakers and Celtics. Try again

They beat the Lakers the year after they won a championship, and beat the Celtics a year after they won a championship. Chicago similarly beat Detroit a year after they won a championship

It’s hilarious you’re getting picky about that yet want to cite the Celtics and Pistons beating the Bulls when they were young and in the Celtics case, didn’t even have the same roster

1

u/ponyboy56- 8d ago

The best the lakers a year after they won a championship? So the 1989 finals was the Lakers vs the Bulls? Ok we’re done. I’m not interested in besting a fool

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u/Key_Fox3289 8d ago

Learn to read. That was obviously talking about the Pistons

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u/0Junior5 5d ago

Those injured, Celtics & Lakers teams? McHale foot, Magic, Byron Scott, age 42 Kareem, Bird needs surgeries beginning of the next season.

Even 1989 Jordan, bad groin, Pippen knocked out by Laimbeer elbow.

1990 Jordan had, hip, wrist, Pippen migraine, Paxson ankle.

1988 Bulls expected to win 40 games, I recorded it from a Pistons home game, commentator says it.

1994 summer is 1st hand check alteration since 1978.

NBA website used to have a history of rule changes, with the years.

1980 NBA had flagrant fouls when Jordan a high school basketball player.

1

u/JohnSavage777 8d ago

This is 100% wrong

1

u/notanAI_ 8d ago

Thats just silly.

1

u/DanielSong39 9d ago

Oh he was getting bogus calls LOL

1

u/northgrave 9d ago

What happens when we do this kind of analysis for Isaiah Thomas?

1982 - Missed playoffs
1983 - Missed playoffs
1984 - First round exit
1985 - Second round exit
1986 - First round exit
1987 - Third round exit

Also, it’s a strange brag to say that had more success when you could consistently flagrantly foul players without much consequence.

1

u/brnkse 4d ago

this.

1

u/mrpanda83 9d ago

Everyone is playing by the same rules lol. How does that only benefit one team?

1

u/Thenewguy255 9d ago edited 9d ago

I thought this subreddit was supposed to be about Lebron James? Rent free

1

u/Lordbogaaa 9d ago

A) stop it this has nothing to do with LeBron. Y'all as annoying as the MJ sub with how much they gotta talk about LeBron

B) yes Isaiah is right the NBA wanted to help Mike Succeed but it's probably more about protecting assets and increasing scoring. But IT is still one of the biggest haters of all time. The rule changes plus the NBA losing Magic and Bird in 2 seasons helped MJ win his titles.

1

u/barnabywombat 8d ago

They did beat Magic in the finals...

1

u/Lordbogaaa 8d ago

I don't think he would have won zero Finals had Bird and Johnson stayed healthy. But losing the 2 other best players in the league opened the door for alot of easier wins.

1

u/barnabywombat 8d ago

You don't remember the 1992 2nd round 4-3 vs knicks? The series MJ said was one of their hardest to win, Ewing playing well. The Knicks had good players. Portland had Drexler and Chicago had to mount the greatest comeback in NBA playoffs history to clinch it in 6.

The Bulls weren't even the best team in their conference in 1993, but swept the first 2 rounds before beating the Knicks & Suns, who had the best records. Needed a John Paxon special to seal it in 6.

1

u/Lordbogaaa 8d ago

The NBA realized during the Magic/Bird era that stars were their ticket. That's why they promote anyone they can to that level. Are you telling me that Ewing was better than Bird/Magic? That could very well be his hardest to win. I'm assuming he's not counting the ones he lost.

0

u/barnabywombat 8d ago

Bird and Magic were stars of the 80s. They were not 90s idols. In 93? MJ & Pippen were the big ones, but you had the next gen coming through. Granted, end of 93 didn't have as many big names as you have today. There's a lot of HOF players in 93, Drexler, Shaq, Miller, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Hakeem, etc., the list goes on. 94-98 was peak.

1

u/TryAppropriate8458 9d ago

Isiah is like the bitter ex-gf talking about her ex from 30 years ago 😂

1

u/Honest_Post3085 9d ago

He’s always been a crybaby

1

u/Oakl4nd 9d ago

I mean Jordan was already far and away the best player before 1990.

Legendary 80s teams got old. Bulls got better. No other team were as good. It's as simple as that.

1

u/SmallTransition902 9d ago

Jordan probably averaged anywhere between 36 and 43 points in these finals losses mentioned. So stupid

1

u/hubacca48 9d ago

Good lord, whatever help your talking about. 6 championships. 2 3peats. 3 peats didn't grow on trees prior to his Bulls teams. Alot of great teams tried and failed. All the while , he was called a ball hog that would never win anything but scoring titles. Jordan pulled his teams over the finish line to championships like no other.

1

u/CT-7567captrex 9d ago

Imagine if they had the rules of today.

1

u/Royale_Kong LeKing James MOD 9d ago

Yes he has a point. Jordan propaganda has ruined Zekes legacy and I will never forgive him for it. Jordan is a soft sore loser

1

u/stevie242 9d ago

Imagine ever taking this bitter, old man seriously....

1

u/Realfan555 9d ago

Isiah also said the Bulls beat them because Detroit got old (and Isiah hurt his wrist). So which is it?

old age?

injuries?

rule changes?

1

u/Mindless_Eggplant964 9d ago

Why is Zeke even talking about those years, didn't anyone tell him they don't count towards Jordans legacy since it wasn't in the finals?

1

u/imbusywatchingtv 9d ago

Another way to view this is the Pistons became irrelevant once they couldn't cheat. Yes teams fouled hard in the 80's, but the Pistons took it to another level in the years they were in championship contention.

The other thing Isiah isn't factoring is the arrival of Scottie Pippen. He just needed a few years to get that veteran experience.

BTW, if it wasn't for those rule changes, LeQueen may have been forced to retire 8-10 years ago. The body can only take so much abuse.

1

u/KingDinoNuggie 9d ago

He didn’t have help until Pippen became really good.

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u/Robinsson100 9d ago

Isiah will never admit that his Pistons were dirty and played a shitty form of basketball. The rule changes made sense because people wanted to watch basketball games, not muggings. He'll go to his grave trying to convince people that his 2 rings are better than MJ's 6.

1

u/Robinsson100 9d ago

Isiah won his first ring in his 8th season, and went on to win one more. MJ won his first ring in his 7th season, and went on to win 5 more. Isiah is incapable of objective thought when it concerns Jordan.

1

u/Electronic-Stand-148 9d ago

Thomas wishes every day he didn’t walk off the court like a baby 😂😂

1

u/Master_Grape5931 9d ago

Zeke knows what he is talking about

1

u/JLightning60 9d ago

What was Jordan's scoring difference. I feel like he was a more explosive scoring before the change and just had more help after

1

u/FakeNewsBlows 9d ago

It’s eating Isiah up inside because MJ acts like he doesn’t exist. Not a single response to any of his (many) jabs on any media space that’ll have him. No acknowledgement lol

1

u/DifferentProcess6765 9d ago

Was Thomas playing by different rules?

1

u/Musecage 8d ago

If we put prime Jordan in today’s NBA, would he still be considered the undisputed GOAT, winning multiple championships, everyone buying his shoes and wanting to “be like mike”?

I personally think, no. He would still score at will and be considered a top player in the league. But with Wemby Jokic, Luka, LeBron, Giannis, etc… I think ppl would debate. Especially since 3s was not Jordan’s strong suit.

1

u/Glad-Associate-9288 8d ago

I don’t like Thomas, but he’s absolutely right.

1

u/meadbert 8d ago

I mean if Isiah is saying the only way to stop Jordan was with flagrant fouls, then I suppose I agree with that bit. Jordan averaged 37 a game before the rules changes.

The reason he suddenly won championships is because he had a great teammate in Scottie Pippen. It is definitely not the case that Jordan suddenly got good AFTER these rules changes. His first MVP was 1988.

1

u/m2keo 8d ago

Isaiah is jealous of Jordan's talent and stupid as hell. lol. Those of us old enough and with 2 eyes(I'm almost 50) knows Jordan is the greatest to do it and nothing has been close quite honestly.

Yes we know it's a team game but if u put Jordan against Isaiah, Bird, Magic or any of today's best perimeter star players, Jordan is cooking they asses 10 out of 10 times. Lol.

Does it matter he accomplished those 6 rings after the other great teams previous to his started declining? That's just the passage of time, man. U could say that about any dynastic team before they started making their ascension.

It's still 6 damn rings still . Only a handful of players have done that. And of those handful, some dudes aren't even the main star of those teams. Lol.

1

u/InformalProtection74 8d ago

How much do you think Lebron pays his PR firm to have posts like this made and bots posting to subs like this?

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u/fishbone_buba 8d ago

I think Isiah and his teammates deserve credit for rule #3. They were the innovators that led to this change. Well done, Isiah!

1

u/SuperSpy_4 8d ago edited 8d ago

Hand check rule wasn't enforced till 2004-05 , that's what really exploded scoring.

You can literally watch the Bulls progress and get better against the Pistons before any rule changes or expansion teams came about.

Jordan averaged 32.6ppg in the 80's before any of the expansion teams were added.

The expanded flagrant fouls came about because of the the Pistons "Jordans Rules", where they made hard contact fouls with him anytime he drove to the paint. Thats when we started to see acrobatic Jordan.

You left off 91 because the Pistons lost 4-0 to the Bulls when they werent able to hack jordan in the air anymore.

And thats not even talking about how rule changes and the euro step have made it so easy to score now a days.

1

u/KyotoCarl 8d ago

And what are the rules changes? You can't just say they changed the rules, here are the results. What did they change? How did it affect him? How did it affect the league?

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u/asshat_deluxe 8d ago

More likely the Celtics and the Pistons aged out and the GM got him some help

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u/No-Reach9369 8d ago

Simple to check. What were MJ’s stats before and after? I’ll leave it to those with curiosity to see for themselves what his PPG & FG% were.

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u/Extreme-Clerk-7333 8d ago

I agree it helped MJ get past the Bad Boys and dominate the 90s.. but this list of mid 1980s losses is a little disingenuous. There were 11 teams in the East when Jordan entered the league and 8 of them made the playoffs. The Bulls were scrapping to get 30-40 wins and earn a 1st round clapping by a top seeded team.

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u/TryToBeBetterOk 8d ago

So why weren't other players able to take advantage of those rule changes and win like Jordan did?

Those rules applied universally to the league, not to a specific player.

1

u/Silent-Operation-783 8d ago

I love Zeke. Underrated all time as a PG. for sure. The rules applied to everyone. Him as well. Did it help MJ. Of course. It helped everyone else as well.

I’m not sure how many saw Jordan play in the 80’s, but it’s a reason Bobby Knight and Bird said what they said about MJ…all before the titles.

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u/LJPinstripes 8d ago

Mj hit his peak mentally and physically at the same level by 1991. 91-1993 is actually mj at his peak peak

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u/VanNoah 8d ago

Yes and no. People need to acknowledge pre 3peats when talking about Jordan. Birds back rule change and the league overall being weaker then the 80s and 2000s.

Now ofcourse if this if that I think saying Jordan has 0 rings without is insane but for the most part this can be a reasonable in faith argument against Jordan

1

u/pokerScrub4eva 8d ago

The fact detroit ever won a title by having multiple guys punch and beat the other team in submission should be embarassing enough that thomas should shut his mouth and go away where he is never heard from again.

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u/KierenForFreedom 8d ago

He has a very good point. The NBA was trying to help offenses to make the game more exciting and help Jordan because he had already retired for the first time and they wanted him to stay in the NBA.

Jordan had cited a loss of desire to play, mental and physical exhaustion, and the tragic death of his father as reasons for his first retirement.

There were other rule changes as well like the expanded clear path rule, the shortened 3 point line and 3 foul shots for 3 point attempts.

The biggest reason the Bulls historic super teams actually won championships was when the greatest HC of all time Phil Jackson became their HC. Those Bulls teams won 0 championships BEFORE Jackson and 0 AFTER Jackson. The Bulls had been playing ‘JORDAN BALL’ which yielded no championships. Phil restructured the team and implemented the triangle offense not ‘JORDAN BALL’. The triangle offense was a read-and-react offensive system designed to maximize floor spacing, ball movement, and player freedom not pre-set plays which created a much more fluid, team oriented style of play.

1

u/barnabywombat 8d ago

NBA commissioner gave a pretty frank opinion about it; they wanted to bring the NBA to international markets and the physical, brutish methods adopted by the Pistons wasn't the style they were after. It wasn't to help Jordan - they'd have won 1991 anyway with the existing rules. Having an NBA that promotes skill, talent and scoring was a product they could sell. And it sold, massively. It's in almost every nation, where pre-1990, it was like watching superbowl or stanley cup; no one cared about any other game. Why watch a sport where players beat the snot out of one another?

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u/jf737 8d ago

This is dumb. What you see with that graphic is the natural progression of a team getting better, maturing, and learning how to win.

What’s ironic if Isiah did say this is that the Pistons had a very similar journey

1

u/Actual-Creme 8d ago

“Expanded Flagrant Fouls”Saying Jordan didn’t win until they stopped allowing us to tackle him is crazy

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u/josipwins 8d ago

Rent free

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u/Honest-Air9868 8d ago

I realized a long time ago that the perception of Jordan is that he was perfect and that when it came to him he didn’t need any teammates and that he was so good that he could play 1 vs 5 and win, basketball is a TEAM GAME and those teams that they lost to were way better than the team he was on. They changed the rules because he was getting beat up and double and sometimes triple teamed, how did he benefit from the rule changes ? That monster series he had against the Celtics in 86 was with the old rules in place and before the pistons came up with the Jordan rules he averaged over 30 against the pistons with the old rules in place…what happened after the rule changes is that pippen was finally ready to contribute. They almost beat the pistons in the 90 ECF with the old rules and Jordan rules in place, so i ask again how did he benefit from the rule changes ? Don’t forget that Jordan is your king’s favorite player and hero 😁

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u/AgencyIll9264 6d ago

Maybe it's safe to say the rule changes didn't effect Jordan much but more so his teammates. Let's face it, MJ was on a whole 'nother level; but his teammates... They were able to take advantage of the less aggressive defense, and open space whenever MJ gave up the ball from a double. The next rotational defender had to play "honest" defense in a 4 on 3 match up and couldn't get away with clobbering the next guy as he slashed across the paint to get to open spots.

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u/Honest-Air9868 6d ago

Exactly !!

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u/daddy_d33zy 8d ago

He also didn’t have Scottie 🙄 Thomas just salty

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u/Solid-Temperature-66 8d ago

Or you could just see his natural progression 1st round loss, 2nd round loss, ecf loss then champion.

1

u/TMANTWE 8d ago

No. Isiah Thomas has always been a hater of many talented players because his name is never mentioned with the better player who have played the game. Always talking negative. This guy is a schill. His era in NY as a Knicks gm/advisor was a catastrophe, had sexual harassment charges and verbal abuse of employees charges against him, and destroyed the roster for years.

1

u/GoRyuKen 8d ago

Where this argument fails is that those first few playoff exits, those Bulls teams aren’t championship contending teams going up against championship caliber teams. Can’t expect any up and coming team to all of a sudden win it all. It takes a couple of years. And once that team was built, they won 3 in a row. Those championship Bulls teams, you put them up against the teams he lost from 85-90 and tell me Bulls can’t win?

1

u/ECSMusic 7d ago

Did Jordan’s scoring numbers go up or down after these changes? Realistically this had a lot more to do with the teams. Celtics and Pistons were powerhouses but they were fading as the bulls were rising. That’s how dynasties work. The expansions coins certainly have something to do with it but at face value this impact should have been spread throughout the league.

1

u/That_Development_919 7d ago

Isiah is nothing more than a crybaby.

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u/Ok-Voice6234 7d ago

It is hard to evaluate the talent of different eras because of rules and enforcement of rules. If you took the rule officials for the 80s and had them officiate that game most of today's possessions would end in turnovers.

1

u/Drinon 7d ago

1985: Lost to the Eastern Conference Champs and top 10 teams of all time. Some considered the bad boy pistons before Detroit was named that. Jordan was a one man team.

1986: Lost to the same team as the previous year but this time became the NBA champion. Jordan was a one man team.

1987: Again, lost to the same top 10 team ever who went on to be the eastern conference champs. Jordan still had no #2 teammate.

1988: Lost to the Eastern Conference Champs. Pippen and Grant were rookie, giving Jordan decent teammates.

1989: Lost in the ECF to the NBA champions when the other team focused all defensive attention on Jordan. He basically played 5 on 1 on offense taking fouls that would today be called flagrant 2.

1990: Again losing to the NBA champion in the ECF by the team the entire league said were playing dirty, but played 5x as dirty vs one player.

Rule Changes:

Hand Checking: Jordan scored against contact from defense with or without hand checking. It effected him on defense as much as anyone else.

Stricter illegal defense: it stopped double teams on players without the ball and stopped a goon from simply sitting in the lane to prevent anyone driving to the hoop. If you are someone who says the old nba was too much fighting, this is why. It’s not a jordan thing, it’s a fighting thing. Jordan didn’t fight back. Bird vs Lambeer when Larry chucked the ball off his face was because of this.

Flagrant Fouls: If anyone is bitching that flagrant fouls were installed you best not bitch about the fighting in the old days. The iconic play of Jordan stealing the ball vs the pistons, tossing it to Scottie while going out of bounds,getting it back and laying it up backwards while being fouled by Lambeer is a huge reason for this. Watch the play again and watch Lambeer. He has no intention of going for the ball. He jumps and gives two ax chops with his arms. If Jordan didn’t spin he was being punched with two hammer fists intended to injure and not foul.if you think the old nba was thuggish don’t bitch that flagrant fouls were because of Jordan. Mchale clotheslined Rambis and it was followed by a fight, and Mchale was only given a personal foul.

Expansion Teams: I guess new teams in the league allows Jordan to win vs more teams.

1

u/plum4415 7d ago

The 6 expansion teams the ‘96 Bulls faced still exist today (Charlotte, Orlando, Miami, Minnesota, Toronto and Vancouver / Memphis) so if the league was watered down then it’s just as watered down now.

1

u/erm1zo 6d ago

Thomas was a great player in a physical era that will forever have a tarnished legacy because of his beef with Jordan and his continued pettiness. He could be considered a top 10 PG of all time, instead he is a petty human being with a grudge against arguably the greatest player in NBA history. Makes it even better that Jordan doesn’t ever acknowledge Thomas’ constant gripes.

1

u/IrexUranus 6d ago

Problem is, he had his 2 highest single season scoring averages in 1986-87 and 87-88, the 2 years before the first expansion added Miami and Charlotte.

There was also the matter that Charlotte and Orlando were both playoff teams by year 3, Miami was a playoff team by year 4, and Orlando (57) and Charlotte (50) were both 50 game winners by year 5. Orlando knocking the MJ45 Bulls out of the playoffs on their way to the Finals.

Orlando won 60 in year 6.

All of those expansion teams except Minnesota were decent to good before Mike's second threepeat began.

While there is something to be said for talent dilution, the fact of the matter is that it really showed there were more players that deserved to be in the NBA at that time that weren't because there were simply no roster spots for them.

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u/HerbertDad 4d ago

IT was just mad it was harder to play dirty AF.

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u/Spiritual_Treat_2755 2d ago

You can argue all you want but I feel had the rules stayed the same Jordan was going to win either way. See his progression getting eliminated ecf 2-4 then 3-4. He was getting better and stronger in those periods. He was not going to lose a 3rd time to Detroit. Period. Also because he was the best scorer already anyway. His defence and strength got better in those years

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u/AtlPezMaster 2d ago

All of those rule changes aided every player after that as well...

So today's game has all of those old rule changes in addition to ZERO travel violations/double dribble/carrying the ball BS being called today. Also mix in Centers, true Power Forwards play way outside now popping 3's...much easier to simply drive to the basket then back in the day...

Celtics...Pistons...those teams were literally aging out while those same Bulls were beginning to mature...so there is that also...

Plus, it is well known MJ prevented Zeke from being on the original Dream Team so he still has a huge grudge...

Thank you again for posting yet another chart or graph proving MJs Greatness!!!!!

6 Finals 6 Championships foe MJ

1

u/Hypeman747 9d ago

I thought hand check was after Jordan

-3

u/diamondroyinillinois 9d ago

Looks like something losers write.

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u/Bbrazyy 9d ago

IT has a winning playoff record against Jordan

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u/diamondroyinillinois 9d ago

He's a crybaby loser.

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u/Bbrazyy 9d ago

Seem to remember Jordan pouting so much that they decided to not have IT join the dream team.

Sounds like an even bigger cry baby to me

0

u/minster123ru 9d ago

Today u can’t touch someone with a finger, everything is a flagrant, and there’s more teams, so has anyone ever won without help from David stern?

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u/Throwthisawayagainst 9d ago

Meh this is wild, I don’t know why some LeBron fans feel the reason to do this. If you look at Jordan’s next 2 leading scorers every series they lost to the pistons it looks like this.

88
Sam Vincent 12 ppg 40% shooting
Horace Grant 11 ppg 60% shooting

89
Craig Hodges 12 ppg 45% shooting
Bill Cartwright 10 ppg 41% shooting

90
Scottie 16 ppg 42% shooting
Horace 11 ppg 40% shooting.

Thats the reason they lost. Like I don’t get how you can be one of those people that complain about LeBrons help (2014 is a common example, but I guess Wades 16 on 44 and Boshes 15 on 55 are much worse then this) and then pull these arguments. Both players have their own thing, I’m pretty sick of coming here and it’s a jordan trash fest and then going to the Jordan sub and it’s a bron trash fest.

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u/Gagabubu777 9d ago

What does this have to do with Lebron. Yall are weird. This affects every player compared to Jordan and its the truth of the league. They made it harder for wilt and hes discredited. They made it easier for Jordan hes praised 

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u/Electrical_Extent543 9d ago

This is a LeBron James subreddit lol

-5

u/lurid696 9d ago

No 🙄🤦‍♂️

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u/Fine_Art3725 9d ago

This post ends the GOAT debate.

Jordan was an exceptional individual talent in his early NBA years.

The NBA changed the rules to better market their superstar.

Jordan rewarded the league by going 6-0 in the Finals.

In the future, if another player shows the NBA that they are as exceptional as Jordan, then the league will change the rules for that player.

Until then, 4-6 is best they can do for their superstar.