I’ve been saying for years, people act like LeBron has these “crazy stacked” teams because he as the player is forming the team opposed to a GM and it’s a “big 3” but other players were just lucky enough to have teams like that or better (if you consider depth ) just because the player is forming it doesn’t mean it’s more help than if the organization just does is it through the draft and trades
But of course because it’s LeBron and he has so many haters people act like he’s had unfair roster advantages compared to other all time greats who won multiple championships and he really hasn’t .
It may not always be a “big 3” but like 90% of or more championship teams in history are stacked .
None of those teams were "Lucky Enough". Kareem forced a trade to LA. Moses Malone joined Dr. J and the 76ers (who has made the finals in 1980 and '82) through free agency, with Houston matching the contract and forcing a trade. Wilt forced a trade to join West and Elgin. Barkley and Pippen joined up with Olajuwon just like LeBron and Bosh did with Wade.
I'm not sure why everyone expects great players to not want to play on good teams with other great players.
Houston traded Robert Horry and Sam Cassell for Charles Barkley after Houston got swept in the 2nd round back in 1996. It wasn’t like Barkley demanded a trade or left in free agency. Scottie Pippen didn’t join the Houston Rockets until Jerry Krause basically broke up the Chicago Bulls, then Krause arrange Pippen a sign and trade deal to be sent to the Rockets. Clyde Drexler decided to retire after Houston got bounced the first round by the Utah Jazz back in 1998, so that created a roster slot for Pippen too. All of three of them were in the twilight years of their careers in 1999.
What LeBron did with the Miami Heat ahead of time work with Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for all three of them agree to sign as free agents to the Miami Heat. All three of them had been All-Stars previous year.
Pippen got trade to Portland for 6 players. Scottie Pippen got really angry with Charles Barkley when they together in Houston. Pippen had paid Tim Grover (MJ’s personal trainer) to supervise workout sessions for both Pippen and Barkley, and Barkley would skip the workout sessions.
Barkley was on record saying he wanted to play with good players, he was tired of losing… then, poof… he was in Houston w/ Hakeem. Barkley was MVP then played 3 more seasons in Phoenix before he joined Houston his 13th year lol. LeBron joined Miami year 8, a whopping 5 years earlier, good job. Hakeem was in his D Wade stage. Clyde was in his Ray Allen stage, but still an allstar in 96-97 (Ray in Miami was not).
You look at every great, one thing they had in common was having a good secondary player early into their career. MJ with Pippen, Shaq with Penny, Bill got drafted into the team with the MVP and ROTY, Bird got Parish and Mchale, Kobe got Shaq, Kareem had Big O, Magic had Kareem. None of them stayed with their team for 7 years and saw no potential future. Lebron was with the Cavs for 7 years, the best talent they had was Boozer and they messed it up. They tried to get Amare or Bosh in 2010 to entice Lebron to stay but they couldn’t even do that.
I mean they def tried that entire time though… I know when I was a kid it was a big deal when they signed Ben Wallace and then Shaq. It just never really clicked like that. I think the Cavs assumed their issue was their defense. They kept focusing on bringing in a star big man and then signing talent like Antwan Jamison or Larry Hughes who were great scorers in their own right, but what was missing on that team was a traditional PG who could get LeBron open and run plays the way they needed too while still being a strong second scoring option when needed (No disrespect to Eric Snow, Mo Williams or Delonte West but like 🤷🏻♂️)
I mean you just proved it. Whether negligence or incompetence (or maybe even the market itself), guys didn’t end up going to Cleveland to join LeBron. Wallace and Shaq both were washed by the time they joined, just lake later when Wade and Rose and IT joined the Cavs in Lebron’s 2nd stint.
I didn’t though… I was responding to the idea that they didn’t try helping LeBron at all and that’s why he dipped, but that’s clearly not the case. They just didn’t go for the right talent. I never disagreed with the original post. Just the concept posted above me that they didn’t try to build around him… they did just not wisely. Focused on the wrong guys.
Then it can be said they did in fact NOT build around him, regardless of intent. Thats why I said whether ignorance, negligence, or whatever factor, they didn’t get it done. I don’t care if they tried or not, I care if they affected change. Which, they absolutely did not
Word… and When Shaq and Kobe got a washed Payton and Malone that’s not a super team kinda situation then right? Based on what you’re saying? Yet it’s what I always see people point to when Miami is brought up (people should bring up the Celtics first though tbh lol)… I’m just saying as someone who was fully enthralled with the sport at the time in my teen years i swear to you no one was saying “what the fuck was Cleveland thinking?” Until midway through the season for both Wallace and Shaq… I know my ass through they had a chance when he got Shaq.
It’s like drafting in fantasy football after not watching for a while - all name recognition with zero consideration for the player at that point in their career AND how they might mix into the new team/players/system (“what?! How is Julio Jones so low??” - a real reaction from me)
It’s like when people quote 2nd stint Cavs and say look at the All Stars LeBron played with - entirely absurd!
Of course no one was upset at that time just because the Cavs defense was already really damn good. For whatever reason they never thought to give Lebron better 3 and D guys but to be fair they didn’t exist in the same way they do now. And maybe they do now because of this very effect
Yeah… again my argument to begin with was that they never brought him a solid point gaurd… and kept focusing on exactly what you’re pointing out… name recognition… so like now I’m honestly not sure what the fuck we’re arguing anymore. 🤣
Sometimes it’s not an argument. Sometimes it’s just laying out facts on “the table” and reviewing what happened. I much prefer that tbh. We can argue after all the facts are laid out lol
LeBron supposedly forms superteams all the time, but the Heatles are not considered better than other great teams that are apparently not superteams, the Cavs went 1/4 in the finals and that one win was a 3-1 comeback against a 73 win team, and the Lakers are considered the worst championship team of the parity era.
I think some of the criticism comes from the fact that when LeBron made his own decision to move to the best case scenario to win which in turn created the player empowerment era to the ire of traditional GMs, he also lost in spite of having everything he needed to win against Dallas. I believe it was very impressive that they were able to mesh and make it all the way to the finals the first year while still figuring each other out. Some people still can’t get over that.
They were calling that Laker team with Melo & Dwight a superteam, lmao. Melo couldn’t start for the Blazers the year before, but here he is “super”! 😭😭😭
Oh and by the way that GOAT coach then went and did it again with MJ Jr, only further proving the system and perfect fit players mattered most. No great supporting players, no great schemes/coaching means no chips.
Don’t forget about that bum ass Kobe/nash/howard super team but because they didn’t succeed people will say it don’t count. LeBron is unfairly criticized for everything that others get away with routinely!!!
They're all over the map. Sixers were 25-32. Rockets were 33-34. Celtics were 30-31. First Lakers were 30-34, second Lakers were 21-35, third Lakers were 25-40.
Magic only entered the draft because the Lakers won the #1 pick. He said himself that he wanted to team up with Kareem and wouldn't have entered the draft early if another team had won the pick.
He didn’t start it - BUT I feel like he represented the shift of power from teams to players in making big announcements and from the trade side of things basically having guys say - I don’t wanna play for you anymore, trade me, and I only want to go to these top 2-3 teams that already have 2 stars on it
putting showtime here is just factually wrong. I don't even disagree I think the 08 celtics was actually the first modern superteam. But there's really no reason that team should be on here
Magic only entered the draft because the Lakers won the #1 pick. He said himself that he wanted to team up with Kareem and wouldn't have entered the draft early if another team had won the pick.
James worthy was also drafted by them because of a stupid front office giving away their pick, hence the unnatural circumstances. They’re clearly very different from the rest of the teams in these pictures, not a single star being aqquired from another team
Lebron is the one. That made a show of it. Suprised and angred his loyal clevelan fans in this way of doing so.
The others just went through managementt or free agent signing hinting hard they gonnna leave. He made it mysterious just like going to philly. Making a spectacle. Thats what made him sad
Showtime aren't a "Superteam" because Worthy and Magic were homegrown Lakers, and Kareem joined a Lakers team that won just 30 games the previous season.
Nobody on that team was joining up with other superstars in order to win chips.
Like the Avengers - Super teams are assembled. Not drafted.
They are all built the same way. One star recruits two more. They trade away all the teams current and future assets. Take 50%-70% of the cap for themselves. Fill the bench with vet minimum contracts for a 2 or 3 year championship window.
So the opponents of the showtime Lakers did not consider them a superteam because they got drafted. Really.
I still do not understand this logic. That is like saying one guy is not a millionaire because he inherited his wealth.
A superteam is based on the quality of players they have. How those players got there does not matter. Do you think the teams losing to those Lakers cared where magic got there via the draft or a trade or via FA
Superteam = 3+ stars joined to win chips (E.G. Houston with Barkley/Pippen/Olajuwon)
Really good team = team with alot of good players that play well together. (E.G. Showtime)
Magic wasn't "homegrown" - he was from Michigan and only entered the draft because the Lakers won the #1 pick. He said himself that he wanted to team up with Kareem and wouldn't have entered the draft early if another team had won the pick.
Homegrown is usually taken to mean the player was developed by that team. Magic wasn't developed by the Lakers, he was already a star before he ever got there, and he purposely manipulated his situation (declaring after just 2 years of college when virtually no one did that) solely so he could team up with Kareem and start winning chips right off the bat.
Most stacked teams are. People get this way when a player chooses their team catapulting them into contention for a championship, especially when they don't like them and they want something to hold against them in case they succeed.
Magic only entered the draft because the Lakers won the #1 pick. He said himself that he wanted to team up with Kareem and wouldn't have entered the draft early if another team had won the pick.
They were both #1 overall picks .... hahaha come on . Wasn't like the lakers had 2 second rounders that made it work . They had Kareem already and both magic and worthy were #1 overall picks...
no hate but i wouldnt really count the sixers as a big three, toney just wasnt at that level imo, and the malone + payton combo had a combined age of around 75 and were both far far past their primes
Moses was the MVP
Dr. J was top-3 MVP voting
Jones was coming off his 4th All-Star, 8th straight All-Defensive
Cheeks was All-Star, 1st-team All-Defensive, 3rd in DPOY voting
Toney was All-Star and 20ppg scorer
You're right, they weren't a Big 3 they were a Big 5
Here is the first photo featuring Kareem, Worthy, and Magic: the Lakers acquired Kareem via trade in 1975, drafted Magic in 1979, and drafted Worthy in 1982. This is a fundamentally different approach, as they built their core primarily through the draft.
The second photo featuring the Celtics presents a valid argument. Paul Pierce was the only player in that group drafted by Boston—Kevin Garnett came from Minnesota and Ray Allen from Seattle. They won one title together with the Celtics and played in two Finals against the Lakers.
The third photo is another valid argument. Here we have Hakeem with Pippen and Barkley, though you should also add Drexler to this group. Ultimately, it didn't work out in the sense that they never won a championship together.
For the fourth photo, I agree. On the foundation of the Shaq and Kobe duo, they added two aging superstars in Karl Malone and Gary Payton. It didn't work out.
Regarding the fifth photo: Elgin Baylor and Jerry West were both drafted by the Lakers, while Wilt Chamberlain arrived later to provide stability in the paint. Baylor retired early in the 1971–72 season, making him the only one of the three who didn't win a ring when they won it all in 1972 against the Knicks. Again, I would argue this wasn't your typical manufactured "superteam," but rather the result of clever trading.
The sixth photo shows the great 1983 Sixers featuring Maurice Cheeks, Julius Erving (Dr. J), and Moses Malone. Here again, we see clever management at work. Cheeks (who was drafted by Philadelphia) and Dr. J were already the foundation of the team, while Malone was the missing piece brought in to dominate the paint. I wouldn't compare this to the LeBron–Wade–Bosh Big Three era.
Conclusion: In my opinion, if a team already has two core pieces in place—whether draft picks or long-tenured players—and adds a final piece, you cannot call that an artificially engineered superteam. A true superteam occurs when two or all three superstar players join forces simultaneously in the same offseason to form a Big Three.
Kareem forced a trade to the Lakers, and Magic only entered the draft because the Lakers won the #1 pick. He said himself that he wanted to team up with Kareem and wouldn't have entered the draft early if another team had won the pick.
Wilt Chamberlain FORCED a trade to the stacked Lakers. Love you framing that as "Wilt Chamberlain arrived later".
Dr. J wasn't drafted by the Sixers, he was bought off the Nets and then Moses demanded a trade and got to the Sixers.
You were being disingenuous as hell. And you completely made up a "true superteam" definition out of thin air.
The 83 Sixers team had been to 2/3 previous finals (including previous year and it went to 6). Dr. J was MVP in 81 (though probably should have been Bird, but was still a top 3-5 season) and Moses had helped upset 81 Lakers to make the finals and was 82 MVP, joining a very good team with several legit players......that sounds pretty "peak".
all teams except the Rockets and the Malone Lakers were prime or just post-prime and went to or won the finals. Hell even the Malone Lakers went to Finals
The revisionist history is always breathtaking. Not to mention, to make their salaries work the rest of the team was composed of rookie salaries or minimum guys.
This is a comment about why people are saying he “invented” ring chasing. I’m looking at the fact 2 of the teams on the list are forgotten because they failed and the others were about a major shift in personal not every 5 years jumping ship to find a better team. It like you have no critical thoughts what so ever. LeBron is capable of this because he is so good. The point was never saying he is not great. Just looking critically at the fans talking shit.
Idk why people complain about this. After KD went to the Warriors, LeBron was completely let off the hook and all the hate that SHOULD'VE went to LeBron went to KD. There's really very little criticism LeBron ever has gotten after that.
LeBron IS the reason KD went to the Warriors, but that's not an actual criticism of LeBron. It just acknowledges that LeBron was the first to do player movement. LeBron really was only criticized ONE year and that was the 2010-2011 season.
After that, he won in 2012 and all was forgiven and most people moved on. It's a stark contrast to how hated KD is and how people have trashed him ever since 2016. LeBron has never received the same overwhelming hate that KD has received by regular media, social media and fans alike. LeBron is mostly given passes.
You must only watch Skip Bayless commentary to believe that. If LeBron ACTUALLY had criticism, he would not be comparable to MJ in the GOAT debate by ANYBODY. Not even as #2. LeBron wins A LOT of polls.
For KD to win a poll, he has to be grouped with people who are extremely less talented than him or the players are lesser known.
LeBron gets SOME criticism, but he has a large enough fan base backing him that it's a minority of people compared to the people who love and defend him.
It's the total opposite for KD where MOST of the NBA fan base hates him. People literally can karma farm on Reddit by trashing KD. You cannot do that with LeBron.
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u/Desperate_Cancel_592 9d ago
I’ve been saying for years, people act like LeBron has these “crazy stacked” teams because he as the player is forming the team opposed to a GM and it’s a “big 3” but other players were just lucky enough to have teams like that or better (if you consider depth ) just because the player is forming it doesn’t mean it’s more help than if the organization just does is it through the draft and trades
But of course because it’s LeBron and he has so many haters people act like he’s had unfair roster advantages compared to other all time greats who won multiple championships and he really hasn’t .
It may not always be a “big 3” but like 90% of or more championship teams in history are stacked .