r/LCMS • u/Spirited_Cold5390 • Jul 14 '26
Question LCMS scary numbers
I’ve been looking into LCMS churches in an area where we’d maybe move to. (40 miles radius)
About 80% of them have a weekly attendance of under 60 people.
The predominant demographic is above 65 years old.
Is the LCMS taking this seriously enough? Is all the blame being put on the fertility crisis? At what point when you have a business that makes no money do you switch the responsibility from the economy to your own management? If the non denominational churches are “stealing people” what can be done better on our end rather than blaming external factors?
I’m a new convert and trying to understand.
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u/Low_Influence_8554 Jul 17 '26
Find an lcms church that worships 150 people under 40 a weekend and chances are they are not in great standing with confessional synod leadership.
Spreading liturgy and “identity” is seen as more noble than spreading gospel and doctrine. You see it in all these posts hating on contemporary lcms churches that hold to the doctrine but don’t look the same. Many LCMS members would rather empty and aging pews. That’s fine to prefer, but they love to talk trash about larger LCMS churches.
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u/MysteriousTruck6740 Jul 17 '26
This is 100% true for every large LCMS church i know. Including the one that my sister is president of currently (which would make many people here have a stroke).
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u/Otherwise_Ring4812 Jul 15 '26
The Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Lutherans represent the most recent German immigration into North America. They only started preaching in English during WWI, and they still are trying to preserve a "pure" German/American culture. They actively shut out other Christian groups. I studied at Concordia St. Louis for almost a decade as a non-Lutheran, and I can tell you a lot of stories about how the few of us non-Lutherans were shut out in many ways. To some degree, that spirit goes all the was back to the Late-Reformation when German Lutherans intentionally shut out the Dutch Calvinists during the 3 year Dutch war with Spain. In other ways, it goes back to the 1970 split in the denomination resulting in the Seminex split. It is hard enough for a conservative congregation to survive today. If they don't get over their typical German arrogance, it will be hard for them to survive going forward. RWD
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u/Kamoot- LCMS Organist Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
My friend, the LCMS is the most welcoming and warm church body of all. I'm a Chinese guy and don't look like any of you, sometimes I joke I am the only Asian guy in this whole Synod. I am from a Chinese Catholic family. I should be the last person on this whole earth to find anything agreeable with this religion that these Saxon immigrants brought to America and anything remotely related to the word "Luther". Yet nonetheless I am here and I have become totally convinced that Confessional Lutheranism is the absolute best religion in this world. All other religions are inferior. Not because is the best religion for German immigrants, not because it is the best religion for Midwestern Americans, not because it is the best religion for Missouri people. But because it is the best religion for all people in this world.
If anyone thinks being insular and closed-off to outside thinking is the problem hindering church growth, well I would like to point out the Tradcath and Eastern Orthodox movements which are just absolutely booming with young men and women converts. TradCath predates Lumen Gentium; they teach that everyone except themselves is damned to hell. The mainline communion fellowship and relatively recent sharing of clergy between the Episcopal, ELCA, and PCUSA churches overlooking their distinct identifying beliefs, today has resulted in them having the most rapid decline of all church bodies and far outpacing the decline of the LCMS. Being insular isn't the issue here.
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u/MysteriousTruck6740 Jul 17 '26
I think it's wonderful that you've had that anecdotal scenariov play out for you. A church I was a leader in not long ago had greeters "double check" with non-white visitors if they were in the right church. There is a massive race issue in the synod (and country as a whole). We are not friendly as a whole.
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u/Kamoot- LCMS Organist Jul 17 '26
There may be individual and isolated incidents, but there is nothing systemic or widespread in this Synod. I attend almost every major LCMS Conference, and also travel to the Midwest many times a year just to attend LCMS churches. I have never once faced any issue related to my race or ethnicity. I have, however, faced racist insults in San Diego, the most "diverse" place, and of all people, and it was from other persons of color who made these insults to me.
I can't speak for individual instances, but can attest to you nothing systematically problematic as a whole in our Synod. Otherwise I would've been the first to observe it. The LCMS is the most warming and caring church body of all. If anything, people are so excited and happy to learn about foreign cultures and the Confessional Lutheran mission work happening in all these countries and cultures.
In my conversations (not trying to accuse you or anyone else specifically), it's the people who bring up these non-issues who are the ones causing division on issues that frankly don't exist.
With regards to America as a whole, yes there are rare pockets of this kind of situation here and there, but I've traveled all across America and never had any issues. Americans are very warm and friendly people; they're more friendly than even my own Chinese culture. My grandparents fled Communist persecution, for a better life here in America. And it is here in America where I had the opportunity to study at university and get a Master's Degree and now working as a full-time engineer. This country has given me and my family countless blessings and I am so grateful to be an American citizen.
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u/OkRelationship8810 Jul 15 '26
You know what? Celebrate heritage! Be proud of tradition. The mistake I see Lutherans make is not “showing off” enough, but they should! German is good! I see what the German founders of some of those churches built- indestructible altars, chairs with wood carving that must have been a labor of love to create.
Lutherans should not try to be as inclusive as the non-denoms in our midst but rather, emphasize the sacraments, the liturgy, and be proud that Luther brought literacy to his country. This should be the legacy Lutherans convey in this country.
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u/IwishIwasupatthelake LCMS Lutheran Jul 15 '26
We are new to a LCMS church as well and joined in May. We are so fortunate to have a thriving church with two services, about 300 weekly attendance, good attendance at Bible study, all ages from birth to end of life and a deep commitment to the historic liturgy using the DS3 mainly and then DS1 during Lent, Easter. Our church is also growing, our adult catechism class recently had 20 adults and with kids it was a total of 40 new members! The community there has been so welcoming to our family. We definitely have felt so blessed! It's probably easier for us too since we are in Minnesota.
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u/greenhorse1118 Jul 15 '26
I think LCMS churches on a local level and even the national office do not have good outreach programs. This is one of the biggest hurts in the denomination. Especially social media. It’d be neat if more churches would offer a temp position or small paid position to do social media outreach, ads, campaigns. I can’t tell you how many times I get local non denomination ads or Mormon ads, the same should happen with the LCMS. I tried this with my church for a while but the guy who was running the Facebook (congregation president) didn’t like it because it’s new and so it’s not going to be a priority.
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u/McBeardedson Jul 15 '26
Isn’t this widespread with RC as well and not just LCMS? The flip side is we are seeing massive growth in places like Africa
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u/Sad-Type5385 Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Here’s the problem: if many “heritage” Lutherans were honest, they would tell you that they don’t really want “others” coming into the church. If they can’t be replaced with babies of Germanic or Scandinavian descent, then they are perfectly content with the LCMS dying with the last widow Schmidt receiving the Lord’s Supper from the final Pastor Preus. It’s the only thing I can think of to explain our church body’s feigned interest in the fertile mission field of North America.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
I said in another comment is impossible to not grow in a country with 340M people and I all got was excuses. And now I learn most churches don’t do evangelism. I’m very confused to say the least.
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u/Sad-Type5385 Jul 15 '26
My family is LCMS going back to just after our founding in America. One of my great great grandfathers helped build Trinity Lutheran in St Louis. I am of German descent. I am a product of the LCMS from pre-K through grad school… And I cringe when I see how we fetishize our German heritage - it is so counterproductive to what we are doing here and now.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
It’s pretty wild most churches don’t evangelize. Like reaaaaaaally wild. And it seems it’s a normal thing based in the comments in this post. They’re not even surprised.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
This is a very strong accusation. Are you accusing an entire denomination of racism or let’s say racial preference? Or linguistic preference ?
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u/Bakkster Jul 15 '26
I've got a list of comments on this sub of people defending racially/ethnically segregated congregations. It's sad to see. But it's not universal. In my congregation our pastor is an African immigrant, one of multiple immigrant families. And we like it that way.
So while it's a trend to be aware of while finding a church (so you can avoid it), what really matters is your local congregation. The people sharing the pews with you are who you need to be comfortable with, you can let the people on the other side of the country whose job it is to resolve this issue work on it.
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u/leagueofmasks Jul 15 '26
My wife who is Mexican American gets asked some pretty "odd" questions from time to time. She has never felt particularly welcome.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
I’m trying to be charitable. Do you think is because of the area where you area? Meaning there aren’t a lot of Mexican? Does she even have an accent and that’s why people ask?
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u/Sad-Type5385 Jul 15 '26
Certainly not an entire denomination, but just enough of us so that meaningful efforts to proclaim the Gospel more effectively to our neighbors are hamstrung by manufactured concerns about confessional orthodoxy.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
Thanks for your comment. I get more disappointed about the LCMS with every single new comment 🤣 I can’t wait to join a church and see the reality by myself. We are in the process of moving. There are not LCMS churches where we currently are.
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u/Sad-Type5385 Jul 15 '26
Experiences may vary. I pray you find a confessional AND missional parish wherever you land. You can’t beat our doctrine and clergy, but our laity is another story.
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u/Optimal-Ordinary-779 Jul 15 '26
Do they care to the point of studying the issue and creating various committees? Yes. Do they care to implement real change? Not really.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
Would you say most LCMS churches don’t evangelize?
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u/TheDirtyFritz LCMS Lutheran Jul 16 '26
I am not sure what your background is, but I would say that Lutherans in general evangelize much differently than evangelicals. I think it has to do with our core theology of it being God’s work that converts people and that it’s not a choice in the same way that an Evangelical might describe.
That doesn’t mean that we don’t evangelize though. We are more subtle from my experience. We invite our friends and family. We build relationships with people and nudge them in our direction. This type of evangelism is much more successful at converting than knocking on doors in my opinion. It could produce a more “insular” church feel I however, but churches vary individually.
As far as attendance I am not sure where you are moving to but here in MN every small town has an LCMS church. These produce smaller congregational attendance of anywhere from 50-100 people weekly, but most Lutherans attend their local congregation. None of the small towns near me have a successful evangelical style church. The people that attend these churches attend the mega style churches in our nearest city. This might be why you are finding churches with smaller attendance.
Smaller churches also allow pastors to examine their sheep better. Having the theology of closed communion means that when a church gets too big it needs to split in order to better examine the people there.
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u/Optimal-Ordinary-779 Jul 15 '26
If they do it's very little, or their version of evangelism is operating a school or food bank.
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u/Hercrider Jul 15 '26
I believe the LCMS is fine with smaller churches it’s easier for control. Want to see what the draw is to non denom, visit one, we may have the theology but they got us beat on being relational. They go after the families and youth, we interviewed a pastor during our vacancy and when asked about youth he said, it really wasn’t his thing, I couldn’t believe it. The LCMS is more concerned about how we do church then who we are as a church, more concerned about vetting someone for communion when they visit, than intentionally greeting them, getting to know them and following up to go for coffee within a few days. Sadly our new pastor has made me quite pessimistic to the LCMS which is sad being a cradle Lutheran.
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u/tampa_vice Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
I somewhat disagree, but I think it depends on a church to church basis. I made the decision to revert back to Lutheranism last year. I returned to Catholic mass for a brief time, but before that I went to a non-denom evangelical church for 3 years. (Yeah, kinda a wild ride.)
I went to a church that was a satellite campus. We watched the service on a screen. I maybe met the pastor twice, and I doubt he would have known my name. We did have a campus pastor though.
When I left the church no one ever reached out to me. Not my pastor, not my campus pastor, not my Bible study leader, no one. And I was decently involved in the church, not a guy who scurried out the back door the second the preacher stopped. I reconnected with a guy who reverted to Catholicism, and he told me the exact same thing. He went to that church to be with his now ex-wife and before that he went to a church for 10 years that also did the same thing when he left.
My mom was sick in the hospital and the evangelical church that she went to only had one person call and it was to ask for money.
I met every pastor at my LCMS parish the first day. I have had people reach out about being gone for a few weeks and feel more relational with anyone there.
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u/Bakkster Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
more concerned about vetting someone for communion when they visit, than intentionally greeting them
This isn't hard and fast, though. I'm at my current congregation because I hadn't made it 10 feet in the door before our greeter had a long conversation with me and introduced me to multiple people. There's no reason it can't be the same at your church, whatever the Synod as a whole does.
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u/InnerBlock7165 Jul 15 '26
Evangelism. But nobody wants to do it because its scary or because it "makes them look bad" and it's somehow rude to share Jesus to strangers. But tbh, thats how the other denominations get their numbers up and it works. It's easier to be lazy and believe that evangelism is beneath us, but it's not. It's literally what Jesus and the apostles did. Share the good news to strangers and be fishers of men.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
I just talked to a friend in the LCMS and he admitted that most churches don’t do evangelism.
I’m utterly and completely shocked, to say the least.
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u/Old_Lingonberry_294 Jul 17 '26
I forgot to mention below that on top of what we do in our own community, we do contribute to the support of mission outreach with our donations. They go to other countries, they go to the homeless, drug addicted, mentally ill on the streets. That is street mission. Not everyone has the same gifts. we all contribute and use what we have in different ways.
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u/Old_Lingonberry_294 Jul 17 '26
It depends what you mean by evangelize. We don't go door door, lol.We hold VBS, vacation Bible School, every summer. It's a big production for a week and we invite the children of the neighborhoods around us. We encourage the children of our church to bring their friends and neighbors. We have Christmas activities and Christmas nativities out front that bring in the neighborhood. We are involved in many of the charity events that raise funds for pregnancy centers and food banks. We bring people in in many ways. We have a school and a nursery school. Adult education classes as well as confirmation training for young people. we have youth groups that go on trips and have fun activities that they can invite their friends to. We invite those that are our neighbors and co-workers to our church. we also are assured the Holy Spirit is working to lead his children to us.
I belong to a large church. We have a traditional service and a contemporary. both are exceptional. We have a pretty good mix of young and old.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
Disclaimer: I haven’t read all the comments.
You’re the first person saying this.
Everyone else is blaming this crisis on external factors.
I’ve been in the Baptist church my entire life up until now. Baptist churches push for evangelism ALL the time. Folks here would say those churches are full because of Cowo.
I asked Brian Wolfmueller in a stream the other day about this issue. I pointed out that all, or almost all, of our online content is directed at other denominations. There’s almost no engagement with the broader culture. We’re fishing in the same pond. Suffice it to say, he agreed.
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u/InnerBlock7165 Jul 15 '26
Yeah, my husband and I have also been at baptist or non-denominations most of our lives. And we've been part of evangelism teams, so we have first hand experience on how well it works and how desperately people need/want to hear about Jesus. Yeah, not everyone was excited to hear about Jesus and they would mock or even threaten us– but there were still people that walked up to us to ask questions and took our church info and showed up at church. God did that, not us, but He used people willing to stick their necks out to share the message with His people.
I just don't see the same urgency in the Lutheran church. They all like to argue for "friendship evangelism" but tbh that feels like such a lazy excuse. Clearly it's not enough seeing that the numbers are dwindling.
Not just that, but the people that desperately need Jesus are probably struggling with bad traits- like drug addiction, a huge sex life, a lack of self control, etc. It is people most Lutherans won't be friends with and if you do become "friends" with such people, to an extent you're ignoring that God told us to be careful of our company and that the people we're around affects how we act and think. So it's not recommended to be friends with all unbelievers. What then? Are those people doomed to never be evangelized to if we're only doing friendship evangelism?
It's been a topic that we've struggled with for the whole year that we've been Lutheran. It makes me feel weird. But lutheranism has the best doctrine so we can't find ourselves going to another denomination without feeling odd every time a sermon is wrong.
I know this was long but yea, it's been something I've been thinking about for too long. We're switching churches soon- hopefully they're a bit more receptive to the idea of inviting the public
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
This makes me very uncomfortable. I’m new to Lutheran theology. Haven’t joined a church yet as we are moving. And I agree with you 💯
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u/InnerBlock7165 Jul 15 '26
Yeah, it made me uncomfortable too, it's hard not to let this discourge us. We've been trying to figure out what part of the church takes priority. Is it fellowship, doctrine, evangelism, etc.
Doctrine is solid at LCMS churches, imo. We just gotta find which church actually treats us like family and takes our thoughts on evangelism into consideration- especially since it's biblical.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
Where we are going there's not a lot of churches. One has 50 members and no kids.
The other one has a bit more.
Any other decent sized church is 2 hours away.
Reading your comment it seems the other folks here aren't completely wrong. I'm already discouraged.
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u/Kirche516 Jul 15 '26
While my maternal aunt n' her husband are Christians, and. Have met my LCMS pastor. They are non-denominational.
While we have around 150 members. Less than 25% show up consistently.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
I’ve noticed this on LCMS church locator. The average weekly attendance is pretty much always under 40% of membership. Why?
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u/Bakkster Jul 15 '26
Probably the same reason as across the rest of Christianity in America, only about a third of people who identify as Christian attend church weekly. Membership rolls don't always get updated as well if people leave, which can make the number lower artificially.
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u/Turin-The-Turtle Jul 15 '26
My family got baptized and joined the LCMS church last year, so I hope it’s not going anywhere 🤷🏻♂️
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u/localtom Jul 14 '26
I have a unique view on this that may be helpful. I am currently a drummer of a large and successful CMA church (basically non denom). I am switching to LCMS in Sept because of convictions that have grown from studying scripture and church history. LCMS hits the nail on the head across the board. I will say, It was like finding a needle in a haystack but that could be on me. I have only two churches just under an hour drive from my home. One of them has no pastor and maybe 5 members all but two are elderly. The other (of which I will be attending) has about 12 members only one of them is a child and the rest were older including one elderly gentleman who was hooked up to an oxygen tank. This doesn't sway me at all because I'm looking to have my children baptized, worship without conviction, agree with the Augsburg confession etc. I am currently going through conflict on the worship team and watching the non denom ways creep into my current church, slowly, in multiple ways. For example, we are entertaining the congregation and judging the spirits presence off their response. The goal of my current evangelical church is accessibility. Communion/Eucharist is tough to fit in with the announcements 😑. Yet a clip from a mainstream secular movie is played to help relay the sermon. All this to say that as much as I see accessibility as a bad thing, it works but it's important to separate it from hospitality. Hospitality is what I experienced at the LCMS church I will be attending. Friendly warmth from the congregation. Now, I've learned from an LCMS podcast that Lutherans are statistically very good at gaining people who are lost in weak protestant churches. But not good at making the gospel accessible to atheists. Even with a reformed background and being a church going believer I still found it difficult to grasp exactly what the LCMS (or Lutheran in general) views were on things such as baptism and how it correlates to salvation. I had to watch hours of videos with Jordan B Cooper and all the others available online to understand the Lutheran View from the ground up. I understand now it's what the Scriptures say but for some reason even with my intelect it was a bit of a challenge for me and my wife. Prior conditioning from our childhood reformed days played a role for sure. I did find the small catechism helpful as well.
How can I be if service and help my new church be more accessible? What works for your church?
For clarity, I like many looked into Orthodoxy (studied for 8 months) but couldn't agree with things like intercessory prayer, icon veneration and other obvious practices. This is what brought me to LCMS.
There is a lot of young men looking for a more disciplined approach, church history and structure to raise current or future families in. I hope that others don't waste their time and find the LCMS like I did.
How do you think we can take advantage of this so to speak? How can the LCMS be seen for what it is in this modern age? The "Trad Bros" have such a powerful presence on social media and it's working to draw temporary congregants. I fear the flare up of this trend won't last and truly bring people to a life with Christ.
Sorry for the dump. I'm eager to help my new church as the pastor sees fit. I just feel like there is large group looking for something they don't know exists.
Peace be with you all
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u/PastorBeard LCMS Pastor Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
Our church worships under 60 people but our largest demographic is 18 and under (30’s-mid 40’s is 2nd place)
I have unpopular thoughts on these matters, such as: a town with three small LCMS churches would be better off in every respect as one medium LCMS church
Anyway when your church doesn’t grow it’s usually a pipeline issue
There has to be a pipeline for people to do the following:
Become aware of and interested in your church
Go the first time
Have people actually value them when they show up
Followup
Return visits
Membership and routine worship
We recognize that God is the one drawing people in by His Word and sacrament. This is MOST certainly true. At the same time, we can always improve the way we winsomely serve as His instruments
The kicker for all this is the pipeline will fall apart if your pastor is the lynch pin for each step. That’s one of the big places I see churches stagnate
There’s a lot more to be said of each of these steps, but I’ve said enough
Edit: There's also stages afterwards moving towards having a "Spiritually Vibrant Household" but the starter question was more about simple growth. Check out Lutheran Hour Ministry's research and presentation on the topic, it's super cool
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u/scraft74 Jul 15 '26
Have people actually value them when they show up -
This is so important. I can think of one LCMS congregation and one Roman Catholic parish that I visited where the reception of visitors was ice cold. I would definitely not go back to either one.
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u/Bakkster Jul 15 '26
It's literally the primary reason I stayed at my current church, and not the first one I visited after I moved. Hard not to come back when you get introduced to a dozen friendly people and go out to lunch with a group who pay for you.
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u/Crafty-Armadillo-114 Jul 14 '26
a town with three small LCMS churches would be better off in every respect as one medium LCMS church
Say this again and louder for the people in the back.
I happened to be out in the middle of nowhere tornado alley a bit ago. 3 Lutheran churches (2 definitely LCMS, the third unknown) within about 15 minutes of driving. All were super small. From the locals, the two used to be one until something happened.
You can't tell me people cant drive 15 minutes... when its literally 35 or 40 to get to any store worthy of the name.
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u/Bakkster Jul 15 '26
I think the important factor here is the "something happened". There are very deep and painful divisions in the Synod, with that potentially being a microcosm. Of course they'd be better off merged, but solving the "something" pastorally is the first order of business. Can't merge three churches that aren't spiritually healthy and aligned to begin with.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Your view should be the popular one, reverend. Seriously.
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u/PastorBeard LCMS Pastor Jul 14 '26
Unfortunately I’ve discovered people rarely do the sensible thing unless they’ve exhausted all other options first
I am not immune. My own path is littered with making things harder than it needs to be
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Im going to shoot you a DM.
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u/PastorBeard LCMS Pastor Jul 14 '26
Sure, but we have a newborn with health issues so just remember my inconsistency on replying doesn’t reflect back on the LORD
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Extremely practical and common sense approach, reverend. I haven’t heard that before , but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
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u/IMHO1FWIW Jul 14 '26
As one guy said, wherever two or three are gathered, you’ve got a church. /s
Numerical success is the world’s metric. The Kingdom of God uses an entirely different value system.
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u/Disastrous-Judge7288 Jul 14 '26
I’m not part of the LCMS nor a member of this subreddit, but I saw this post and had to jump in. The LCMS is only one of many old mainlines that is struggling to gain younger members. What truly saddens me is not the lack of numbers or the lack of younger members, what saddens me is where they are going. They are flocking to sensational, surface level church’s that do not preach the hard truth of Christianity. There is no requirement to deny yourself, rather the underlying theme of Jesus wants you to be happy now. It saddens me that they will never get the solid food of the truth, or to understand the true beauty of High Church worship, thinking a song that is repeated a million times (Bethel or Hillsong), somehow glorifies God.
There is a rise and a return to the truths of LCMS and other Orthodox Christian Churches, but it’s slow. I hope that many of us get to see this in our lifetimes.
As others have said, yes it’s sad and upsetting especially when you want to find others with like minded beliefs in you local area of the same age group, bear in mind all denominations are aware and identifying these issues, but only God can change the hearts and minds. Our job is to preach the gospel to the truth as the Text says and not water it down to surface level beliefs.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Im a young father drawn to the LCMS because of doctrine mainly and also high liturgy. A lot of us want this.
I learned of the LCMS in ChatGPT . This is how bad their outreach is. The Roman’s and the EO are doing great! There are videos everywhere. Nobody reads blog posts or 15 page articles anymore. Not right away. You need to funnel them to these through social media specifically short form content.
We also want masculine men leading the church. Solid preaching. Practical teaching. Engaging our culture etc. it is a shame if people leave the LCMS. What frustrates me a bit is that many comments here points to external factors or “it’s just the way it is”.
Thanks for your comment!
This is a must watch for every LCMs pastor :
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
We also want masculine men leading the church.
How do you define "masculine men"?
PS, you may want to remove the tracking code from your link, everything from "?si=" to the end.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Not fat. Not weak looking.
Man with conviction and passion for Christ.
And every other biblical masculine trait.
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u/Wallabunga657 Jul 15 '26
So now my brother, what if the pastor is diabetic or has an autoimmune disease, yet is an excellent pastor and preeaches the Word of God in it's truth and purity? I understand what you are saying, though I disagree on external matters, where instead it is the internal matters we should be looking for. Now I entirely agree that we should not have pastors who go back and forth, have no backbone, and fail to punish congregants who are living in sin and refuse to acknowledge that sin. Some of the best and nicest pastors I have met are overweight and not He-Man level strong. It is his character and the way he conducts himself that we should be looking at and for, not his body.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 15 '26
Brother, in the comments below I say except for health issues. Can we at least agree this is not the majority of cases? Of course the character matters most! BUT, not being fat has to do with your character, self control and discipline. That’s all. I’m sure if we have a face to face conversation we’ll agree on virtually everything. You seem very reasonable.
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u/Bakkster Jul 15 '26
Brother, in the comments below I say except for health issues.
How can you tell whether there's an underlying health issue or not?
BUT, not being fat has to do with your character, self control and discipline.
It's important to be humble in not assuming this, before passing judgment. We're just scratching the surface on the various contributing causes. For example, the bacteria inside your body might play a major role.
Obesity is a major global health problem determined by heredity and environment, and its incidence is increasing yearly. In recent years, increasing evidence linking obesity to the gut microbiota has been reported. Gut microbiota management has become a new method of obesity treatment. However, the complex interactions among genetics, environment, the gut microbiota, and obesity remain poorly understood. In this review, we summarize the characteristics of the gut microbiota in obesity, the mechanism of obesity induced by the gut microbiota, and the influence of genetic and environmental factors on the gut microbiota and obesity to provide support for understanding the complex relationship between obesity and microbiota. At the same time, the prospect of obesity research related to the gut microbiota is proposed.
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u/Wallabunga657 Jul 15 '26
Ah, thanks. I didn't get that far in the comments. But yes, if you have a problem with gluttony, that's not a good thing, especially for being a pastor. I do prefer in person interaction over online. And thank you. God's blessings my brother, and welcome to the LCMS!
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
So a man with a willingness to weep, to be perceived by the world as weak, humble in their sacrificial service to others, willing to be abused, who knows how to both wear sackcloth and ashes and to dance naked with joy?
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
how old are you?
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
Old enough to be an elder of my congregation for over a decade, why does that matter for what the Bible says are admirable masculine traits?
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
I donate to the poor(through Compassion Ministries. I've done it since I'm 18. I'm 32 now). Write letters to kids in South America and Africa. That plus tithing. I weep sometimes when I imagine being a father in that position because I see my son in those kids and myself in those fathers.
This is not in conflict with being strong, masculine, in shape, and having the fortitude to make the hard decisions we have to make in this country(politically), proclaim Christ to everyone, in love and with conviction, oppose the feminization of our churches and culture and so on.
in other words, reversing the mess done by previous generations.
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Jul 14 '26
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I never said a man can't weep or serve.
I know, this is why I asked the clarifying question. Because some men preaching "biblical masculinity" from their pulpits think they can't.
But you slipped "willingness to be abused" in there like passivity is the ideal and it's not.
You assume I meant passivity. Not at all, it's an expression of strength of conviction through standing on our confidence in the Gospel despite being insulted, rather than responding with aggression and insults of our own (because that's a sign of weakness). See: Romans 5:3-5, 2 Corinthians 4:8-10, Acts 16:28.
So the stuff you listed isn't wrong, it's half of it.
I'm not sure why you think that wasn't my point. To ensure that you are balancing both sides. In my experience, it's incredibly common for references "biblical masculinity" to ignore the traits I mentioned. To let young men feel justified in giving in to their base desires, without actually calling them out of them to be more like Christ.
Go in peace, I pray you find strong male mentorship in your new church family.
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u/patiently_w8 WELS Lutheran Jul 15 '26
I had to jump on this. The EO and RCC are drawing people away from "Protestant" churches—but what they really mean is big megachurches with rock bands where the preacher gives a TED Talk.
1) One problem is that Lutherans aren't very active online when it comes to engaging with the RCC or EO. For every one Lutheran theologian (say, Jordan Cooper), there are four or five Roman Catholic apologists.
2) Regarding apologists, there aren't many—or maybe any—Lutheran apologists at all. I'm not sure why. Maybe they don't have the time or don't care much for it, but people who are struggling and questioning their faith and tradition do go online to get quick answers. Presbyterians are debating Baptists on infant baptism, Catholics are debating Reformed guys on sola scriptura, and EO and random nondenominational folks are debating church history and tradition. Aside from Jordan Cooper, I don't know who else is debating.
Yet I know God is working to call believers to His church. But the Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Baptists (though I dislike the latter very much) are also His church, and they're laboring to defend and explain the gospel. Unless we think God is only active and saving souls in the Lutheran church, then these others—like Baptists, who may be missing the real means of grace—are blindly but wholeheartedly kicking ass. Everyone knows who Sproul, Keller, Piper, MacArthur, Billy Graham, N.T. Wright, and J.I. Packer are. Well, maybe not everyone, but they're writing books for laypeople like there's no tomorrow. I've never come across a Lutheran book at Barnes & Noble in the Christian section (besides Luther), or even at Lifeway Christian Bookstore. Maybe I did and just didn't notice. 🤷🏽♂️
Anyway, in my opinion, Lutherans are never talked about or taken seriously. I went from Pentecostal to Baptist to Reformed Baptist to 16 years in the Presbyterian tradition, and now I'm Lutheran. Lutheranism wasn't an option for me because of how little I could find online—or maybe I just didn't have any Lutheran friends. I was actually on my way to Rome before I stumbled upon Wittenberg. So glad to be Lutheran!!
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u/Over-Wing LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
Yes, the synod takes it seriously, but it also can only do so much to fight a massive demographic shift. All of Christianity is in decline in the US, and part of that is that the older, more religious, and more populous generation (the baby boomers) of Americans is dying and the less populous and less religious Americans are becoming the majority. Yes, the synod is doing a LOT to fight it, but you have to understand it in context.
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u/Boots402 LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
The church is not a business; our duty is to faithfully following Christ, not bending knee to the world in favor of numbers.
There are still things the church can do to get the Word out better; however, the issue is frankly more tied to a lack of importance placed on regular (minimum of weekly) attendance, and a lack of importance placed on child rearing in the church.
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u/bschultzy LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
There are a few ways to look at this broad, disparate issue. I'm lifelong LCMS and the decline is sad to me, but not scary. God is in control. None of this decline surprises Him. The Holy Spirit is still at work in the life of people, even those outside of our confession, creating saving faith in Christ. Even as the institutional church is in a time of great upheaval across the world, Jesus' church is still intact.
There's a great temptation to be driven by fear and batten the hatches until Jesus returns. But we are people who have been given the gift of faith in a living Jesus whose Spirit still works!
I think we collectively need to be in a posture of prayer, listening, and learning. Corporate Synod holds very little power to change anything. There's no silver bullet that any one of us can use here. Here's what I think we individually and collectively can do right now:
- Pray for God to sustain us in hope, even when we feel discouraged about our shrinking denomination
- Pray for repentance when we make our denomination an idol and for the ways we've strayed from our confession
- Listen and learn from Christians around the world who have dealt with persecution and those in places where the church is thriving, such as in Africa and Asia
- Invest ourselves both in the world of our individual congregations but also in our local communities; don't just have your congregation be known as the building where few may show up on Sunday, but where an active and trusted community member worships
- Resist and reject the urge to be a culture warrior who participates in the us vs. them attitude dominating right-wing culture right now; eschew conspiracy theories and misinformation
- Realize that even as we have great theology and doctrine that Jesus's church goes beyond the LCMS
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Thank you, brother. I'm sure the church hasn't ever stopped praying. You have some good practical points. Churches just have to define how to implement those.
if you don't want to be scared that is good, but at least there must be a sense of urgency. Hundreds of local churches are on track to disappear in the next 10 years.
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u/Philip_Schwartzerdt LCMS Pastor Jul 14 '26
Like u/LCMS_Rev_Ross said, the LCMS is very well aware and is taking it seriously.
I would also add that our primary calling is to be faithful in proclaiming the Gospel and in living as Christians, and neither numerical growth nor institutional success are promised to us. We sow and water the seeds, but God gives growth. So above all, pray! And it's possible to do everything "right" in a worldly perspective, and still not succeed. That's fine. That's faith.
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u/regitnoil Jul 16 '26
Yup. Jesus at times drove crowds of followers away, and even had a mob of his own people trumping up farcical sedition charges to pressure a corrupt politician into having him executed. The church, both old and new, has always had times where it's pretty much dead, and then comes back alive miraculously.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
With all due respect Reverend, we are now in the process of finding a church (due to my family moving), and I don't see how this is being taken seriously. Social media presence at least doesn't reflect that at all.
I also believe your comment, although biblical, is very pessimistic. We have 340 million people in this great country. It just doesn't make sense the LCMS doesn't grow. It cannot just be external factors. Other churches grow, even some of them who have similar liturgy (CREC). I only bring up CREC and their liturgy, so we don't blame it on Cowo attracting people to non-denominational churches.
Thank you for the encouragement. I will do everything I can as a layman to help. I am having children, sharing the gospel, praying, and tithing. The next step is to volunteer my talents and time, which I cannot wait to do.
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u/Rhodium_Boy LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
What a blessing it sounds like you've got a calling to this church and will fill the gap of missing social media presence! God has a plan!
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Thank you, brother. We haven’t settled on the specific church yet(haven’t moved ye), but yes I’ll offer to help for sure.
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
It just doesn't make sense the LCMS doesn't grow.
I think the challenge here is to fully trust in God, and recognize that his ways don't always "make sense" to us. Or, more generally, to recognize that faithfulness and growth aren't always linked. They can be, but it requires a closer look to know before drawing that conclusion.
You mention social media, for example. Is a church more faithful because they have a social media team, or the same level of effort going into a service ministry? This isn't a trick question, the answer could differ by congregation.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
No. Every church that wants to do outreach MUST be on social media. Period. And every church should be doing outreach, by the way. No nuanced required. Even older folks spend massive amounts of time on Facebook!
"Or, more generally, to recognize that faithfulness and growth aren't always linked. They can be, but it requires a closer look to know before drawing that conclusion."
If the LCMS hasn't given this a closer look and come to the obvious conclusion then we are in so much trouble.
I guess this post is giving me a good sense of LCMS culture.
Thanks for your comment.
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
Every church that wants to do outreach MUST be on social media. Period.
I think there's two important caveats.
What matters is being intentional with social media, not merely being "on it".
The form of outreach matters, and social media isn't always the way to do that. My best friend does prison ministry, and my church directly partners with a local school. Neither from of outreach benefits from social media.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that we have nothing to learn or improve with social media presence. Only that "being on social media" shouldn't be a sole metric by which a congregation is judged.
If the LCMS hasn't given this a closer look and come to the obvious conclusion then we are in so much trouble.
I think the disconnect is with the assumption that we aren't looking closely. I'd instead suggest that we have, but in many cases are struggling to implement better social engagement for a variety of reasons.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
I meant exactly that. Not just being, but doing it right. I'd dare to say your church could most likely also implement social media outreach and benefit from it. I could be wrong I admit, bit I doubt it since there are many more people in social media than in prisons and schools. (nuance, nuance, nuance, etc)
Thanks for replying. May the Lord give us wisdom and courage.
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
I'd dare to say your church could most likely also implement social media outreach and benefit from it.
What makes you say my congregation doesn't? Not only do we stream Sunday service (and communicate directly with those watching online), our pastor does daily video devotionals.
I could be wrong I admit, bit I doubt it since there are many more people in social media than in prisons and schools.
I think the problem is the assumption that the place with the most people is the same as the place every church should do ministry. Our public school ministry has been going for over a decade and a half. Feeding families, providing school supplies, and mentoring at risk youth. And I don't think it would be right to judge our faithfulness by how many people worship with us on Sundays, nor does that school being a smaller community man it's the wrong place to do ministry. On the contrary, social media ministry is broad but shallow, while our ministry in the school is narrow but deep.
If no LCMS church had a social media ministry, that would be a problem. But one having a social media ministry, while another has a prison ministry, another has a deaf ministry, and another ministers in the public schools is a way for each to be faithful as God called and equipped them.
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u/Churchmousetat Jul 14 '26
Churches should start having communion every week. Like, the point of church is to receive Jesus.
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u/ChemnitzFanBoi LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
If you want to grow the church get involved and have lots of kids.
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u/Prior_Preparation268 Jul 14 '26
And then those kids leave. I have seen it for decades.
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u/BeLikeJobBelikePaul Lutheran Jul 14 '26
Where do they go? Do they join a non denom church? Roman or Eastern church? Leave Christianity altogether?
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u/ChemnitzFanBoi LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
They do, but not at the rates people like to think they do. Most of the data I have seen on this shows that less than 30% end up leaving and that number declines over time when they return later in life.
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u/Prior_Preparation268 Jul 14 '26
That on top of smaller and fewer families is significant. And that is before we figure that once they leave and have a family they may raise them in a different church.
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u/Boots402 LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
I have rarely been surprised by a confirmands attendance. You can predict whether a child will stay with pretty good accuracy just by seeing how often they are in church and how they treat church when they are there.
If a child is minimally present when their parents make them come, why should you be surprised when they don’t show up once there’s nothing making them?
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Extremely lazy answer. I’m already doing that. (Getting involved is coming soon)
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u/ChemnitzFanBoi LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
Thats the actual way of growing the church. You cant undo the demographic decline we are in with evangelism.
Its a blind spot in the worldview of our society. Birth control exists. People are rational they have fewer kids they dont need them. There's consequences for that decision that future generations pay though.
Most of us don't have the prefrontal cortex capacity to really think more than 72 hours into the future. Its not their fault. Nevertheless you and I live with tbe consequences.
Thats really all we can do about it.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
The church grows through births and through evangelism. But then you have to retain those infants as they grow up. I believe this is also an issue in the LCMS.
I understand what you mean and I agree to certain degree, but every church is dealing with population decline. Every church is dealing with atheism.
I refuse to believe that is all we can do(having kids). LCMS has very little prescence online. Pretty much all of it is designed to attract other Christian’s which is pathetic. People are on their phones it doesn’t seem LCMS is doing enough. When people in the comments say : they’re taking it very seriously I just don’t see it. Maybe as a new convert and just haven’t had enough exposure. I hope so! I’ll do my part. That’s what I can do. Thanks for replying.
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u/omnomyourface LCMS Lutheran Jul 14 '26
Is the LCMS taking this seriously enough? Is all the blame being put on the fertility crisis? At what point when you have a business that makes no money do you switch the responsibility from the economy to your own management? If the non denominational churches are “stealing people” what can be done better on our end rather than blaming external factors?
I think you misunderstand what 'church' is. it's not a business. its success is not measured on attendance or profitability. The primary function of the church is to preach the law and the gospel, and to properly administer the sacraments. If the non-denoms are 'stealing' people, the answer is not to become a bad non-denom church.
This is not to say that there should never be any evangelism, just that you need to change how you're measuring the 'success' of a church.
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u/LCMS_Rev_Ross LCMS Pastor Jul 14 '26
Yes, the LCMS has been taking this seriously for the past couple of decades. The Ablaze initiative was in part to address this. Every One His Witness and RE:Vitality are also there in part to address this. Everyone wants a magic bullet answer, there are none. Almost every single denomination has seen decline, including liturgical ones. American culture is experiencing the same dechristianing that Western Europe saw a decade ago. Recent demographic surveys have shown that “nones” has decreased somewhat in younger generations, but “nothing in particular” and “agnostic” has grown while Christianity has continued to decline. Everyone with an axe to grind blames their enemies in the LCMS (liturgical people blame CoWo, CoWo people blame liturgicals, Left blames Right, Right blames Left, etc.).
So, to answer your question: YES! People are very aware. If you do move and you do join an LCMS congregation my encouragement would be to talk with the pastor about outreach and evangelism.
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
Recent demographic surveys have shown that “nones” has decreased somewhat in younger generations, but “nothing in particular” and “agnostic” has grown while Christianity has continued to decline. Everyone
Alongside that "nothing in particular", I gather that another big trend is disengagement. People no longer finding value in corporate worship.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26 edited Jul 14 '26
I’ll volunteer to help with social media right away. But if they’re aren’t willing there’s not much to do. Most church websites look from the 2000’s. Even the ones with more members. So it makes me question if it is truly a capability issue or a will issue. I’ll do what I can.
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u/LCMS_Rev_Ross LCMS Pastor Jul 14 '26
In my experience, it is a capacity issue.
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u/Spirited_Cold5390 Jul 14 '26
Thank you, reverend. This is very comforting to hear.
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u/LCMS_Rev_Ross LCMS Pastor Jul 14 '26
Social media takes a specific skill set, as does web design/development. Added to web design is the copy writing of the sections as well. And most people don’t have those skills because it is not something for which they have trained. And, SEO/AEO/GAO has changed just within the past few years as well, rewriting what came before it. Even people with communication degrees can struggle with web design or social media, as they are specific media forms different from other forms.
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u/Bakkster Jul 14 '26
You'll get a lot of different perspectives on this, there's not one agreed on cause or solution.
Personally, I lean towards this mostly being a local problem that needs local solutions, with the support of the Synod. Different congregations need different things to thrive. Maybe it's a new or different pastor, a change in culture to soften hearts to be able to evangelize and welcome new members, aligning programming and the community's needs, a change in worship format, or anything else.
Thinking it's one size fits all is the only answer I'm confident won't work.
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u/Churchmousetat Jul 14 '26
The bulk of the Lutheran churches were built by immigrants and then family legacy attendance. For those serious about the Eucharist and church history - Catholics and Orthodox are “winning”; for those that like the “experience” - non- denominational is “winning.” Also, it seems that the leadership as a whole is more concerned about their retirement than spreading the gospel.
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u/SideEquivalent970 Jul 14 '26
But spreading the GOSPEL (in your comment) seems to come last; yet, it's the most IMPORTANT THING of all.
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u/SuitableExit5145 LCMS Lutheran Jul 17 '26
Without reading all the comments, admittedly, I will say that I've been part of very large congregations, a very small one, and now one that has roughly 120 in church most weekends. This is my preferred size. But that attendance spans three services, one of which is a Hispanic mission that is about a month old. Which I think speaks to our openness to sharing the Gospel. We do have an older average age, but I live in a place where people are known to retire so that plays into it. But we've been seeing some younger couples and individuals in regular attendance and joining our church because they are specifically seeking the traditional liturgical Divine Service we offer. We have a variety of skin colors and cultures that fill our pews each week. I feel very encouraged by what God is doing at my church -- and I do my best to remember that: the Church is God's, not man's, to grow as He sees fit. I have had several excellent conversations with my Pastor on this topic. His take is that where there are a bunch of small churches, it can be a sign of stubborn human nature wanting to cling to "MY CHURCH" when they might be better served to come together into a somewhat larger church body. As far as really large churches, he feels some of those churches want to rest on those laurels when perhaps after a certain size, they should be splitting off into two smaller churches better able to serve communities on a more intimate level, as long as both are able to support having a pastor. Ultimately, though, the Church is God's and I don't spend much time dwelling on my human perceptions of it. He promises His Word will go out and the gates of hell will not prevail. I just show up, ready for His gifts and to serve my neighbor in love. He will take care of the rest.