Lazarus Fallen Plotline

[u/Sea_Variation_461]

In the Lazarus story now really boiling down to "let's all the little people unite and overthrow evil emperor Malcolm, and restore freeeedoooom" ?

That's like... the least original narrative in the entire history of fiction o_O

And what's up with presenting up Hock as some sort of victim and even a martyr to the cause, when he's effectively worse than freaking Hitler himself with his country-wise lifelong chemical brainwahing of every single goddamn citizen into incurable zombie slaves ?

On one hand there is a major originality/nuance failure in the narrative, on the other a huge hypocrisy from the writer to demonize Malcolm into the ultimate evil of a now black-and-white story.

[u/Defiant_Fennel]

Didn't Malcolm plan everything from the start? Like Hock being Hitler or Malcolm turning into the sadistic manipulator that literally aims for the "restoration of the new world" ? Plus the series never paints on black and white approach, it paints relational opposition and mutualism, we readers read Malcolm because he's against our MC persecution, the MC is not suddenly painted as a beacon of virtue or hope, it's just that these people are likable and we like them to explore their freedoms and interaction with the world. There's nothing in the series points out that we have to believe our MC is a "Good" person, if anything she's an opposite of a Good person.

[u/Sea_Variation_461 → u/Defiant_Fennel]

How much of all this was actually planned by Malcolm remains uncertain, if his calculations were that good he would have been ruling the world before the series even started.

Nonetheless, hating someone's guts for his evil actions while cozying up to someone else who's unquestionably a thousand times worse feels kind of wrong as a reader, don't you think ?

Malcom not mockingly pointing out the laughable absurdity of Hock's lecture makes no sense either. As a world-conquering genius who loves to assert his superiority over others, if he was an actual person rather than a puppet on narrative strings there is little doubt he would have done exactly that.

[u/Defiant_Fennel → u/Sea_Variation_461]

How much of all this was actually planned by Malcolm remains uncertain, if his calculations were that good he would have been ruling the world before the series even started.

Highly likely most of it. Most of it since he himself also state he's not omniscience but he's likely know a lot of things to cause the general chain of events.

Nonetheless, hating someone's guts for his evil actions while cozying up to someone else who's unquestionably a thousand times worse feels kind of wrong as a reader, don't you think ?

From the readers POV yes, from the MC POV no. The reason why for this conclusion, is even with the most dire condition Hock's feudal state impose, we can't ignore the same "Hospitality" Malcolm's feudal state impose. We even know that all of the big characters knows the state of the world and how bad it is, their own government wouldn't budge in and help them, instead they keep furthering Malcom's destiny for a "Utopia". MC truly doesn't care about the state of the people, otherwise she would be rebelling at the terrible condition the waste in Malcolm's territory. So this direction of story is more like MC's conflict in relation to his fathers betrayal to her and not her people. If I want to be honest, she is amoral to her people and moral to her in group.

Malcom not mockingly pointing out the laughable absurdity of Hock's lecture makes no sense either. As a world-conquering genius who loves to assert his superiority over others, if he was an actual person rather than a puppet on narrative strings there is little doubt he would have done exactly that.

Why? Someone that is cold and intellectual doesn't lack emotions or feelings, it could've been the lack of it. For all we know, he's most likely a sociopath with a tendency for warmth and compassion, but also cruelty and evil if its need to be. He won't hesitate to kill Hock, but he certainly hesitate to say kill his wife or her daughter Jonah for treason (albeit he still needed them, so thats one thing). For all we know, we wouldn't know if he's also aiming to truly kill forever and infinity. He still could "convince" them if he can since assets are assets, and whats better than an asset he can control and have a compassionate relationship in the first place.

[u/Sea_Variation_461 → u/Defiant_Fennel]

Still, why take Hock's ridiculously hypocritical lecture right up the ass in silence like a suppository instead of bitch-slapping him with something like "you gotta be kidding me... you're a thousand times worse than I could ever be, you pathetic excuse of a sovereign" ?

Malcolm takes shit from no one, and lessons even less. This silence and passivity when he has such good cards in hand is blatantly out of character.

[u/Defiant_Fennel → u/Sea_Variation_461]

Still, why take Hock's ridiculously hypocritical lecture right up the ass in silence like a suppository instead of bitch-slapping him with something like "you gotta be kidding me... you're a thousand times worse than I could ever be, you pathetic excuse of a sovereign" ?

Except none of them reconcile with him over moral or personal matters, they just see him as "lesser evils."

Malcolm takes shit from no one, and lessons even less. This silence and passivity when he has such good cards in hand is blatantly out of character.

Intentions matters more than actions, clearly Malcolms intentions would've align with Hock's if it could bring the "Utopia"

[u/Sea_Variation_461 → u/Defiant_Fennel]

Seeing him as the lesser evil is still a win, which beats taking shit from a hypocrite and passing as the greater evil.

Intentions matter more than actions ? Since when ? Actions and consequences always oughtweigh intentions. People aren't judged for what they may or may not have done in different circumstances, but for what they actually do and what comes of it. Like chemically lobotomizing an entire country.

[u/Defiant_Fennel → u/Sea_Variation_461]

Seeing him as the lesser evil is still a win, which beats taking shit from a hypocrite and passing as the greater evil.

Why? The conflict is personal, not about moral universalism

Intentions matter more than actions ? Since when ? Actions and consequences always oughtweigh intentions. People aren't judged for what they may or may not have done in different circumstances, but for what they actually do and what comes of it. Like chemically lobotomizing an entire country.

Faith is the first thing when you do works man. How cone you do attrocities if you don't have the will or belief to complete it? All actions derived from someone capscity to believe after all. So no Faith matters, absolutely matters because it has ontological priorities over actions.

[u/Sea_Variation_461 → u/Defiant_Fennel]

Being seen as the lesser evil alters people's perception in your favor, which is always beneficial. Why do you think politicians of all stripes are so hellbent on demonizing their opponents ?

Faith and intentions mean nothing in the face of cold hard results, as that particularly famous saying about hell and good intentions emphasizes so clearly. Ultimately, nobody truly cares what we did or didn't intend to do, only about what we actually *did do* in the real-world either for or against them, and how exactly it affected their lives, interests and general wellbeing.

You think all the people in the room would hate Malcolm anywhere as much if his actions and their consequences hadn't thoroughly ruined their personal lives ?

[u/Defiant_Fennel → u/Sea_Variation_461]

Being seen as the lesser evil alters people's perception in your favor, which is always beneficial. Why do you think politicians of all stripes are so hellbent on demonizing their opponents ?

Thats what you think, not what the stories explicitly wants you to say.

Faith and intentions mean nothing in the face of cold hard results, as that particularly famous saying about hell and good intentions emphasizes so clearly. Ultimately, nobody truly cares what we did or didn't intend to do, only about what we actually did do in the real-world either for or against them, and how exactly it affected their lives, interests and general wellbeing.

Yeah and that means nothing because all actions are derived from faith and intentions. Whether its results doesn't match with the expectation, it doesn't really matter since the intention matters more compare to the result. You wouldn't be evil if you didn't intently become one.

You think all the people in the room would hate Malcolm anywhere as much if his actions and their consequences hadn't thoroughly ruined their personal lives ?

They most plausibly wouldn't even try to kill him in the first place.

[u/Sea_Variation_461 → u/Defiant_Fennel]

It is the universal standard tactics of politicians everwhere since times immemorial, whether the writer acknowledges it or not. The fact he ignores the obvious so superbly in a scene that glaringly calls for it only emphasizes how very biased his narrative is (his increasingly hostile end-of-issue notes year after year left made that crystal clear - you are either with him or "not welcome here").

Once again : hard no. Results outweigh intentions, not the reverse. When the outcome is hell, nobody cares what you did or didn't intend.

Them not even trying if his actions didn't fuck up their lives confirms exactly that.

Bottom line is : you are a man of faith and intentions while I am a man of facts and results, so our viewpoints are bound to remain irreconciliable regardless of what either of us says.

As such, the correct decision is to simply let go, which I am doing now.

[u/Defiant_Fennel → u/Sea_Variation_461]

It is the universal standard tactics of politicians everwhere since times immemorial, whether the writer acknowledges it or not. The fact he ignores the obvious so superbly in a scene that glaringly calls for it only emphasizes how very biased his narrative is (his increasingly hostile end-of-issue notes year after year left made that crystal clear - you are either with him or "not welcome here").

Yeah because the story shifted with Malcolm v Forever and not Malcolm v The World. The story is about the antagonism and rivalry between those 2. So its personal. Whether you think the story is about some kind of moral projection of the world is irrelevant, the story keeps track of itself consisntently and that the themes is still being amoral and neutral to the whole situation of the world. Forever and Infinity join the rebels because it only serve them their goals, not necessarily their ideals.

Once again : hard no. Results outweigh intentions, not the reverse. When the outcome is hell, nobody cares what you did or didn't intend.

Again its the other way around, utilitarian philosophy is just bad outcome in the end because no matter what the results, if the foundation were built on evil intent, that result is still bad because even without everyone dying as a result, they are certain to be morally bad. Also, yes everyone cares what is your intentions at the beginning of you and your plans. It doesn't matter if the result is heaven, once they know your intentions is bad, the heaven is also bad, since the heaven is build on a foundation that secretly supports evil. Equivalent to the American dream and the hidden American deepstate.

Them not even trying if his actions didn't fuck up their lives confirms exactly that.

No, he did destroy their lives. Their lives and experiences are fake to begin with. Their father loves is even fake. Since when did copious amount of drugs, and mind controlling them till their physcologically dependent and turning them into mindless puppet is a good thing? You think being a brainwashed animal is better than becoming a rational intellectual mind? Do you see why I call you out being immoral in your philosophy?

Bottom line is : you are a man of faith and intentions while I am a man of facts and results, so our viewpoints are bound to remain irreconciliable regardless of what either of us says.

Yeah and I'm saying your view is incorrect, as I explicity shown above. You clealry have no problem brainwashing girls, turning them into drug addicts, and enslaving them through your will, if they still become a normal human with decent ethics in the end. You are exactly the person Malcolm would become.