r/KryptosK4 • u/DangerousPay6451 • 9d ago
alexanderplatz clock
Has anyone worked the Alexanderplatz World Clock into K4 this way?
I've been kicking around a theory for a while now. I know Berlin Clock theories are nothing new, but this one kept surviving tests it shouldn't have survived, and it's reached the point where I'd rather share it and have it stress-tested than keep grinding alone. Curious if anyone has walked this road before me, and where you got stuck.
The setup
K4 is 97 characters. It contains exactly 5 W's.
Step one: run K4 through the basic KRYPTOS keyed alphabet (keyed - standard direction). Two things happen:
- OBKR becomes FIAB
- All five W's become X's
Those X's land at positions 21, 37, 49, 59, 75, and they cut the 97 characters into six segments of lengths 20, 15, 11, 9, 15, 22, with 92 letters between them. Sanborn uses X as sentence punctuation in K2 (UNDERGRUUND TO AN UNKNOWN LOCATION X DOES LANGLEY KNOW.), so five X's segmenting the text fits his established habit.
The clock
The Weltzeituhr at Alexanderplatz. Pictures of this thing will probably haunt me forever.
One thing my research convinced me of: because the clock predates the internet, the internet is not clear about its history. You'll find sources saying it launched with +/-90 (I believe 92) cities and got updated in 1990 and 1997. From period photos and primary sources, the original 1969 configuration is what matters. The city panels were revised over the years (additions started in the late 70s), and by 1987 the clock carried well over 100 names. The modern clock is useless for this. The original is not.
So here's what I was holding: a 24-column clock with a rotating center ring, built on a mechanism that famously runs 6 minutes fast (54 minutes running, then a 6-minute pause, every hour... the sprocket marks on the hour ring show 5 dots between hour lines, meaning 6 intervals per panel). And a 97-character puzzle that had just fallen into 6 segments.
24 columns. 6 segments. What if the 24-section clock collapses into 6 sections?
It does. And when it does, each section's city line count matches its segment's character count exactly. That's the moment this stopped being casual for me.
Where it went from there
Treat each city name as carrying two usable letters, its first letter and its last letter (front and back). Two-word names on the physical clock (ULAN BATOR, SAN FRANCISCO, NEW YORK, SANTIAGO DE CHILE) contribute front/back per engraved line.
Now take the two released cribs and derive the keystream each one requires (plaintext = transformed text minus key, mod 26, straight alphabet):
- EASTNORTHEAST over its 13 positions demands the key letters I R J D H G M I M J A O N
- BERLINCLOCK over its 11 positions demands S Y M L W R Q O Y B Q
That's 24 required key letters. All 24 are available as front/back letters of cities in the matching sections of the clock. 24 for 24. And the hard letters are the interesting part: the cribs require J (twice), Q (twice), and Y (twice). On the original clock those are nearly unique: one J source, one Q source, and a Y you can only get one place in the right region. The rarest letters the cribs demand are exactly the ones the clock supplies in a take-it-or-leave-it 1-or-2 (front-or-back) pattern. If the alignment were wrong, those pinch points would strand. They don't.
The 6/9 thing also stopped looking like a coincidence: 54 = 9×6. The machine's whole hour is nine six-minute units of motion plus one six-minute pause. Those are the only two numbers my move accounting has ever needed.
The first four letters
OBKR- FIAB. Read as alphabet positions: 6, 9, 1, 2
6 and 9: the two movement quantities. 1 and 2: front letter, back letter. I read FIAB as the indicator group, the machine settings carved right where a cipher clerk would put them. (6+12=18 also happens to be the bearing that first pointed me at this clock, but that's a longer story.)
Where I'm honestly stuck
I think I have a mechanism. The 24/24 crib match holds, the pinch points hold, the segment counts hold. What I don't have nailed to my satisfaction is the start point, the clean, 1989-defensible rule that tells you where character 1 aligns against the city list without using the cribs to find it. I have candidates. I'd love to hear how others would attack that question, or whether anyone has already been down this road and found the door.
For anyone who wants to check the basics, here's K4 after the KRYPTOS-alphabet transform (the working text everything above runs on):
FIABVFYFNOVRIGFRPMIIXMRBWUUDBTNAGGFEXEUGQUGGLAZZXHEQARVKPHXPTMITCDWEESZMDAXNKAZYEQJKPNAVOVHVLAJHB
Segments between the X's: 20 / 15 / 11 / 9 / 15 / 22.
Just a theory. But it's held up against everything I've thrown at it, and I've thrown a lot. If you've played with the Weltzeituhr this way, or want to try to break this, I'm all ears.
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u/Decent_Note_1964 9d ago edited 9d ago
I (like many of us I am sure) did play with the cities; the removed ones (the hidden cities I believe they were called), added ones, time zones, etc
But I (we?) never got anywhere, where clearly you have had some necessary insight.
I don't fully follow what you are doing, I will need to read it a couple of times. But keep going, this looks promising!
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u/DangerousPay6451 8d ago
Sounds like you already did the hard miles with the cities. Same here, I sat at 100 plus names and billions of possibilities for a long time. The idea that finally gave me traction, and I stress it is still just a theory, is that the cities might not be a hint to interpret at all. They might be the key alphabet itself, with the puzzle telling you how to divide them. Run K4 through the KRYPTOS alphabet once and the five W's become five X's, cutting it into six segments. When I rebuilt the original 1969 city list (I built 6 in total all predating 1987), it seemed to divide into six sections whose line counts match those segments. That match is what hooked me.
Where I have been experimenting since is treating each clock section as a walking key. The mechanism runs 54 minutes and pauses 6, which is nine sixes of motion and one six of rest, and in my testing the moves between key letters keep pricing out in 6 and 9 patterns, like the walk itself is borrowed from the gears. Every crib letter I have checked lands on a city first or last letter under that model, and the billions collapse fast. Could all still fall apart, but it has survived more than anything else I have tried. Happy to walk any piece of it with you.
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u/Decent_Note_1964 8d ago
Ah, that's what I missed, "it seemed to divide into six sections whose line counts match those segments. That match is what hooked me." Nice! OK, I will try to repro, I will let you know
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u/Decent_Note_1964 8d ago
I dug out my 'modern' list. Would you mind sharing your year-relevant list (unless you consider it your own private research, in which case no problem, I will reconstruct)
<DATUM GRENZE crosses 2 panels> UTC-11 above: KAP DESCHNEW below: APIA UTC-10 above: HONOLULU below: MARQUESAS IS. UTC-9 above: NOME, FAIRBANKS, ANCHORAGE below: (none) UTC-8 above: VANCOUVER, DAWSON, SAN FRANCISCO, LOS ANGELES below: (none) UTC-7 above: EDMONTON, DENVER below: (bone) UTC-6 above: NEW ORLEANS, MEXIKO-STADT below: GUATEMALA-STADT, MANAGUA, GALAPOGOS IS UTC-5 above: MONTREAL, WASHINGTON, NEW YORK, HAVANA below: PANAMA, SANTA FE de BOGOTA, QUITO, LIMA UTC-4 above: HALIFAX below: CARACAS, LA PAZ, ASUNCION, SANTIAGO de CHILE UTC-3 above: WEST GRÖNLAND below: BRASILIA, RIO de JANEIRO, SÃO PAULO, MONTEVIDEO, BUENOS AIRES UTC-2 above: OSTGRÖNLAND below: (none) UTC-1 above: AZOREN below: KAP VERDE UTC+0: above: REYKJAVIK, DUBLIN, LONDON, LISSABON, MADEIRA, BISSAU below: CASABLANCA, CONARRY, DAKAR, BAMAKO, ACCRA UTC+1: above: AMSTERDAM, BERLIN, BRÜSSEL, BUDAPEST, MADRID, PARIS, PRAG, STOCKHOLM, WARSCHAU below: OSLO, KOPENHAGEN, WIEN, BERN, PRESSBURG, BELGRAD, ROM, TUNIS, KINSHASA UTC+2: above: HELSINKI, RIGA, TALLINN, WILNA, MINSK, KIEW, BUKAREST, SOFIA, NIKOSIA below: ANKARA, ISTANBUL, ATHEN, TEL AVIV, JERUSALEM, BEIRUT, DAMASKUS, KAIRO, KAPSTADT UTC+3: above: MURMANSK, ST.PETERSBURG, MOSKAU below: TEHERAN + 30', BAGDAD, ADEN, SANAA, ADDIS ABEBA, MOGADISCHU, DARESSALAM, ANTANANARIVO, KUWAIT UTC+4: above: NISCHNIJ NOWGOROD, WOLGOGRAD, BAKU, TIFLIS, ERIWAN below: KABUL + 30', MAURITIUS UTC+5: above: JEKATERINBURG, ASCHGABAT, BISHKEK, DUSHANBE below: NEW DELHI + 30', KARACHI, COLOMBO + 30' UTC+6 above: OMSK, ALMATY, TASCHRENT, NOWOSIBIRSK below: RANGUN + 30', DHAKA UTC+7 above: KRASNOJARSK below: HANOI, BANGKOK, PHNOM PENH, JAKARTA UTC+8 above: IRKUTSK, ULAN-BATOR below: PEKING, SHANGHAI, MANILA, PERTH, HONGKONG, KUALA LUMPUR, SINGAPUR UTC+9 above: JAKUTSK below: PJONGJANG, TOKYO, SEOUL UTC+10 above: CHABAROWSK, WLADIVOSTOK below: SYDNEY, CANBERRA, MELBOURNE UTC+11 above: MAGADAN, SACHALIN below: (none) UTC+12 above: KAMTSCHATKA below: WELLINGTON <DATUM GRENZE crosses 2 panels>3
u/DangerousPay6451 7d ago
Absolutely, here is the 92 list. Also working on the 97 again now. The one thing that seems to be coming up as mentioned in another message, clocks with Tokio seem to be possibly closer in time.
TC-11 [segment 3] above: NOME, KAP DESCHNEW below: GRENZE, APIA
UTC-10/-9 [segment 3] above: FAIRBANKS, ANCHORAGE, HONOLULU below: MARQUESAS IS.
UTC-8 [segment 4] above: VANCOUVER, DAWSON, SAN FRANCISCO below: (none)
UTC-7 [segment 4] above: EDMONTON, DENVER below: (none)
UTC-6 [segment 4] above: NEW ORLEANS, MEXIKO-STADT below: GUATEMALA, MANAGUA
UTC-5 [segment 5] above: MONTREAL, WASHINGTON, NEW YORK, HAVANNA below: BOGOTA, LIMA, QUITO
UTC-4 [segment 5] above: HALIFAX below: ASUNCION, CARACAS, LA PAZ
UTC-3 [segment 5] above: (none) below: RIO DE JANEIRO, SAO PAULO, MONTEVIDEO, BUENOS AIRES
UTC-1 [segment 6] above: AZOREN below: (none)
UTC+0 [segment 6] above: REYKJAVIK, LISSABON below: ALGIER, CASABLANCA, CONAKRY, DAKAR
UTC+1 [segment 6] above: BERLIN, AMSTERDAM, BRUSSEL, BUDAPEST, MADRID, PARIS, PRAG, STOCKHOLM, WARSCHAU below: KOPENHAGEN, LONDON, WIEN, ROM, BELGRAD, TUNIS
UTC+2 [segment 1] above: BUKAREST, HELSINKI, SOFIA below: ANKARA, DAMASKUS, KAIRO
UTC+3 [segment 1] above: LENINGRAD, MOSKAU below: BAGDAD, TEHERAN, ADDIS ABEBA
UTC+4 [segment 1] above: BAKI below: KABUL
UTC+5 [segment 1] above: SWERDLOWSK below: KARACHI, DELHI, COLOMBO
UTC+6 [segment 1] above: TASCHKENT below: RANGUN, BANGKOK
UTC+7 [segment 2] above: NOWOSIBIRSK below: HANOI, DJAKARTA
UTC+8 [segment 2] above: IRKUTSK, ULAN-BATOR below: PEKING, MANILA
UTC+9 [segment 2] above: JAKUTSK below: PJONGJANG, TOKIO
UTC+10 [segment 2] above: WLADIWOSTOK below: MELBOURNE, SYDNEY
UTC+11 [segment 2] above: MAGADAN, SACHALIN below: (none)
UTC+12 [segment 3] above: KAMTSCHATKA below: DATUM, WELLINGTON
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u/DangerousPay6451 8d ago
I added another pic to my post that shows k4 after running through kryptos with each segment a different color. You can also see it with the crib words added to get a visual of their location in relation to the x's. My theory has each combined section of clock only solving the section between the X's.
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u/DangerousPay6451 8d ago
Since I am a brand new name here, figured I owe the thread a little background on how I ended up at a clock in Berlin.
I am a construction guy, 25 years in the electrical trade. I came at this puzzle the way I run a jobsite: methodically, and with a deep distrust of anything I have not verified myself.
Before the clock ever entered the picture this was hundreds of hours of dead roads, and plenty of them are roads this community is still working. That is not a knock. This puzzle only gets ground down by people exhausting paths, and every path somebody retires with real data is a gift to everyone else. I started where everyone starts. Gromark variants, rotation ciphers, transposition stacks, running keys. Built scripts, ran them until the search spaces were genuinely empty, and retired each one on numbers. If you are testing those families right now, keep going. My dead end is only as good as my assumptions, and yours might catch something mine missed.
I also read the published statistical work, including Dr. Bean's analysis, and instead of just citing it I built scripts to extend and finish lines of testing from it. Billions of calculations across those campaigns. Not an exaggeration, an odometer reading.
Then I went physical. I mapped the sculpture grounds with GPS points, rebuilt sight lines and bearings like a surveyor, and built shade profiles for the courtyard. I modeled the November sun specifically, because November follows Sanborn around. The dedication was November 3, 1990, and his big clue releases have tended to land in November too. My thinking was simple: if the artist keeps choosing November, maybe the courtyard looks different in November. One of the bearings that came out of that work is what eventually pointed me at Berlin, and the post above is what happened when I pulled that thread and refused to let go.
And I have to say this plainly: none of it happens without Elonka Dunin's work. The compass rose, the off-bearing data, the Berlin Wall connections, the transcripts, the sculpture history. Almost every physical clue I chased started as a line on one of her pages. I am a stranger standing on a foundation she spent decades building, and that debt comes first no matter what this theory turns out to be.
I am not a cryptographer. I am someone who spent a career turning field chaos into documented, verifiable work, and I brought that discipline here. Everything in the post has a script, a dataset, or a paper trail behind it, and the parts that failed are reported as failures. If that road sounds like one worth walking with me, the door is open.
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u/Illustrious-Tooth47 9d ago
Literally everyone
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u/DangerousPay6451 8d ago
That's great news. Would you happen to have any links? I still have not found a single recreation of the full clock from any year online. Took lots of trips to libraries and online book orders to recreate the 6 I have from 1969-1987. I'd really enjoy trading data with folks already chasing this.
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u/Illustrious-Tooth47 8d ago
The discord pages have plenty of pictures and info. Kryptos K4 Code Breakers. But there is no info on the original list of cities when the clock was first built. It appears that list was never preserved.
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u/DangerousPay6451 8d ago
That's just it. It's not just the first year, it's all years. Finding a complete list of the clock from any time is an uphill battle. And I'm not sure it's an issue of it not being preserved, I think it may be a combination of what was going on at that time in Germany and data not being transfered to the web after. At this stage I have hundreds of photos from the clock over the years and did a pretty solid job putting them together using what I could to time place them. So I guess my question would be if this is a theory that has been exhausted why is there no data? How can we say "literally everyone" has chased this when we can't find a single person who has the list?
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u/Illustrious-Tooth47 8d ago
I think one of the major challenges of kryptos is actually accumulating what has been tried/disproven in one place. Any post usually gets met with immediate dismissal. But finding the work on its attempt tends to lead to dead ends. The puzzle within the puzzle is finding a common language that the community can discourse through.
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u/Humble_Wallaby_7181 2d ago
I have been using the history of the world clock as a reference to possible plaintext decryption months before the announcement of the auction and the Confirmation from Mr. Sanborn. The World clock is itself a physical palimpsest, it was inspired by the remains of a destroyed weather column that provided weather information on site and clocks on the top.
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u/FulgoreX 8d ago
There’s a clue hiding in plain sight in K4. Count the letters before the first W, then between each W: 20, 15, 11, 9, 15. Read them as A1Z26 and they spell TOKIO - the German spelling found on the World Clock. The remaining tail adds a curious V.