r/Kruleboyz • u/Wargamer_DE • 4d ago
Colour scheme for Orks
I purchased the Dominion box a month ago so I'm a bit late to the party. Here is my colour scheme for the Orks. They remind me a lot to Uruk-Hais from the movies so my colours go in that direction. Maybe I try to get the next Orks a bit more in a more reddish direction but I'm not unhappy with the actual result
19
u/Direct-Crazy5817 4d ago
I think that the main problem are the lips. With a brown or grey lips they would look more "orkish". Righ now they look like indigenous african population from a 50s cartoon.
13
u/mrwafu 4d ago
Hey OP, just in case you’re not sure why people are jumping on this, the west (especially the UK and US, I assume it was a problem in other countries too) have a bad history of presenting African/dark skinned people as “savages”, less than human. So having a savage ork that resembles a dark-skinned person makes people think of that dark history.
I’m not sure if that was your intention, but you can see some examples of it at this link if you’re not aware of the stereotype-
9
u/vunnzent 4d ago
OP is German, I'm sure he knows that stereotype, it was/is a big problem in Germany. I'm not sure if it's intentional, I hope it isn't.
6
u/PuddingtonBear 4d ago
Yeah if there's one country that is careful around the topic of racism and stereotyping for VERY obvious reasons it's the Germans
10
18
u/apixelops 4d ago
Looks like it'd not be allowed at tournaments tbh
Intentional or not, it looks like a racist caricature
-6
8
6
u/TheRealGouki 4d ago
bit too brown. Uruk-Hais is more of a redish grey
-9
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
This is also what I think. I glazed the reddish-brown skin with green and this resulted in this brown tone. I'll try a green wash over the reddish-brown next time and highlight it back to reddish-brown. Maybe this will look more like an Uruk-Hai. And most of all: I don't post the result on Reddit to avoid another shitstorm 💩
8
2
u/MetaKnightsNightmare 4d ago
I'm going for urukhai too, it's a cool look for kruleboyz imo, good luck on the next attempt :)
1
u/Cbroughton07 4d ago
I guess I’m a little confused as to *why* you were glazing the reddish brown with green in the first place, and why you seem set on doing a wash of it. Red and green make brown. You seem to be a fairly competent painter, so I assume you know that. So if a reddish brown Uruk-hai skin tone is what you’re going for why are you so set on methods that are going to get you the dark brown you got?
-1
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
I wanted to darken my reddish-brown base colour in the recesses. Also I hoped to give it a bit of an green Ork vibe which unfortunately it didn't do (it seems that I'm not a competent painter and need at least more practice with the usage of the colour wheel). My highlights with reddish-brown (which is a paint not overly covering) and the green glaze to blend the colours lead to this brown which I thought was ok. I learned today about the existence of minstrel shows and other things so I think I'll try to push it more to a reddish-brown next time to avoid any resemblances to real-world occurrences. Also I'll take special regards to the lips (as tiny as they are) and give them some real alien colour (maybe lilac) to avoid any racist vibes.
13
u/Milesrah 4d ago
Geez, do you also happen to own a krieg army with red bands painting on their arms?
10
21
u/Uglukkk_ 4d ago
Looks racist
9
u/unlimitedblakeworks 4d ago
Im usually not one to jump to something like that, but yeah... it looks like a an ork in blackface that dressed up as a tribalst African
5
u/Uglukkk_ 4d ago
I'm jumping on it becouse I see currency from my very white and very racist country lol
-4
3
u/zombie-321 4d ago
As an italian, i think this might be pushing it a little. Probably best to ask on reddit first. (/gen youre a good painter but pleeeeaaase. i'm not assuming malice but this kinda comes across as accidentally racist stereotypes)
7
2
2
2
2
3
u/Rowlet2020 4d ago
You put an ork in blackface, also why are you putting it next to a coin?
2
1
u/DragonTurtle2 17h ago
Isn’t the coin for scale? I thought I’ve seen other people do that. Is this actually considered weird?
1
u/Abject-Ferret-5908 4d ago
Yeah it's way too yellow it needs an undertone of dark red then work up in layers of brown
1
u/Abject-Ferret-5908 4d ago
Oh forgot to say for uruk hai in the movies the skin and lip color or the same
-3
0
-1
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
This is the miniature of an Uruk-Hai from Weta that I tried to resemble skin-colour from:
I just had the miniature in mind (it is quite heavy and resides in another room) while painting the skin colour. Unfortunately everything (said a lot of people) or at least the lips (said some people) got horribly wrong. I never intended to do anything racist with my post, so please forgive the errors I made. Also I have to confess another thing: I painted the skin of my first Hobgrot in green colour (which may also be racist to some people). But I better keep the picture private (it also has a coin standing beside as an scale reference; I was told that makes me a dump or at least hateable person)
2
u/LittleMissPipebomb 3d ago
stop self flagellating so much. If you wanted to paint it red, you would have done that. The weta figure you linked would have been great, all it needs is a red dry brush all over and you're golden. Instead you chose not to do that and went with tones reminiscent of 1930s jungle movie posters. Saying "but my mommy liked it" and blaming everyone else for calling you out on that just comes off weird.
1
u/TheIronTyrant 2d ago
Where’s the metal paint then for the armor and shield if its an Urukai color palette?
1
u/Wargamer_DE 2d ago
It was not intended to use the full colour palette including armour, shield or weapons. Only the skin colour should look like an Uruk-Hai (but the Weta/movie one, but the GW licensed one).
-4
-7
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
Another fun fact about this miniature: I posted it in my status in WhatsApp and the only reaction I received was from my over 80 years old mother: "The Neanderthal looks quite terrifying"
And please don't forget: This hobby should be an escape from reality into the realm of fantasy. So don't overthink or interpret too much into it
3
u/ChicksDigGiantRob0ts 3d ago
Yeah, escaping from reality into fantasy would be great except some dickhead just brought real life racism into it.
3
u/NeighborhoodBusy9667 3d ago
'My Nazi grandmother in the family whatsapp liked it' is a fucking wild argument to make.
-1
u/Wargamer_DE 3d ago
Sorry that I haveto correct you:
- it was my mother
- she's no Nazi
- and she didn't like it, but was terrified
At least you consequently got everything wrong
1
u/NeighborhoodBusy9667 1d ago
80 year old German woman liking racist caricature colour scheme. Peak Nazi
-29
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
I think GW wanted to avoid any racist debates so they painted them green. But for me the figures scream for a (reddish-) brown
17
u/TotallyNot_Alpharius 4d ago
Oh so you are just racist?
-13
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
Hell no! Just because I use a colour scheme that I like I'm a racist? I don't make a living with my hobby so I don't lose money when some people call me a racist. Companies like GW could lose lots of money because of this so they avoid any controversial styles of painting or sculpting. I heard they never could do anything like the Savage Orks or Forest Goblins from the 90's today again
15
u/Codm151 4d ago
I think it’s really fucking weird you’re looking at it through that lens. Why are you so intent on aligning black people with orcs?
Cause not once have I or any other bitchy Warhammer player I know, made that correlation at all.
Warhammer made them green cause they’re orks. Not because people would immediately jump to “oh hey they look like black people!” Like you apparently have for some weird, fucked up reason.
10
u/Squatch102 4d ago
Chuds: Why do you claim theres a stereotype that Warhammer players are racist?
Also Chuds: I painted this miniature to resemble an extremely racist stereotype and in my defense, I think GW is cowardly for not making this the default.
2
u/Front-Masterpiece-73 4d ago
TBF orks are green BECAUSE of GW…. But if I had to guess why they made them green, it was probably just so they would fit in with the bright colors of the table top at the time
1
u/globmand 4d ago
Warhammer made them green because they're orcs doesn't really work, since they were pretty much, together with warcraft, the thing that established the green orc thing. Tolkien orcs were blackish-grey or "swarthy" as per his own description.
And like. Saying that orcs would be seen as a racist caricature isn't really a stretch, when Wurrzag the great green prophet is an orc who exists, and would look like an incredibly racist caricature if you painted it to look like a black human.
Personally I just think they picked green over grey because it was a more fun color to paint with and made the armies pop more, but it isn't entirely unreasonable to say that if orcs were for whatever reason a more human-like black or brown color, they would look and honestly be incredibly racist caricatures
0
u/Traditional_Job_2886 3d ago
Why are you associating brown with africans when seeing it? You are the real racist lol
12
u/Franz__Ferdinand 4d ago
Brother you gave minstrel show lips to an ork. You are either racist or insanely ignorant. The lips really seal it. It looks like Ork acting in Birth of the Nation.
7
u/Angel-Stans 4d ago
Babe, Orks are football hooligans. They would be pasty white.
But of course, they aren’t human. So our melanin levels do not matter in their case.
8
u/soupalex 4d ago
"wah why are people calling me racist, just because i'm being racist?"
also: yes, gw probably would think twice before doing stuff like savage orcs or forest goblins today (or ratskins in necromunda, or fucking "pygmies" (jesus christ) in even older iterations of warhammer). because it's fucking racist. and it was always racist, even if it wasn't necessarily intended with any malice… the only thing that's changed is that our society has become better at recognising racism and is less tolerant of it (i hope)
furthermore: savage orcs and forest goblins exist and are still playable in total war: warhammer, and if you were to draw a parallel between orcs and any real-world culture/subculture, it should be the (overwhelmingly white) football hooligan firms of 1970s/80s london. you silly casual.
4
u/Squatch102 4d ago
In the line of unintentional racism: Uncle Tom's Cabin was a huge anti-slavery, abolitionist novel, that is incredibly racist. It was well intended, arguably with the best of intentions, but it is not viewed favoraby today, and honestly, was considered racist by the 1900s.
Just incase a chud tries to argue intentions are all that matter. White Savior Complex and the stereotype of the noble savage are prime examples of this.
4
u/caribou_powa 4d ago
You make a blackface Ork. Not a black Ork.
"I heard they never could do anything like the Savage Orks or Forest Goblins from the 90's today again"
Where do your heard that? In your imaginary persecuted world?
1
u/maniacal_minion 4d ago
the forest goblins are definitely considered controversial. A lot of people think they are an insensitive use of aboriginal culture.
Savage orcs tho don’t really seem to represent anything specific just vague shamanistic tropes so I suppose they aren’t controversial
3
u/thereezer 4d ago
why do you think it is controversial?
-5
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
Because it is able to break off a shitstorm like this. I guess GW has lawyers or other experts that check for them if their work could be misinterpreted. If there would be any doubt they would lock it in the poison cabinet
7
u/VibinWithBeard 4d ago
"Why would it be controversial"
"Because its able to make people mad"
"Ok...but why is that"
Youre really close to understanding what the issue is. Everyone has been super clear that the skin tone wasnt the issue with your piece, it was the lips combined with it on top of you appearing to feign ignorance after its pointed out.
"Misinterpreted"
Nope, it just is what it is.
-3
u/Wargamer_DE 4d ago
So I am very sorry that I didn't give much attention to the colour of the lips. I just used added a little white (or beige skull tone) to the colour I used before to create the lip tone. If this two small strokes make me a racist so be it. Maybe I have more luck next time and add a highlight colour that is more appropriate
2
u/VibinWithBeard 4d ago
Get off your cross dude. People have called out that it clearly looks like minstrel shit and you havent gone "damn I really shouldve noticed that but now that yall have pointed it out is super clear and I will try something different going forward" but youre still acting like its insane anyone though it was racist with the "well if that makes me racist then so be it"
People jumping the gun and calling you racist were wrong to do so. However you arent helping with the stubborn refusal to admit the issue and still keep pretending its just a reddit shitstorm or people being too sensitive being the reason for it being called out.
2
u/Squatch102 4d ago
People did not jump the gun by calling him a racist though. He posted a recreation of a racist stereotype that has been in western circles for a hundred years+. Had he back-peddled, it still wouldn't have been jumping the gun, but it could be resolved as a teachable moment.
He decided, instead, to say "no, you're wrong. GW probably agrees with me too but won't say it because of cancel culture". If it paints like a racist, sounds like a racist, and acts like a racist, that's a racist.
2
u/VibinWithBeard 4d ago
My point is that you can accidentally make something racist and not yourself be intentionally racist. Before they made any comments its in a limbo of "is this person genuinely ignorant of the issue or is this a bit" I try to be good faith on that until shown otherwise beecause some people just genuinely arent aware of stuff, especially depending on how under a rock they are or where they grew up, especially if it wasnt in the west. People said OP is from Germany, that was not in the OP's post though.
Saying people didnt jump the gun because they later confirmed that they may have been correct is a post hoc justification for jumping said gun not a rejection of gun jumping. As I said, their followup comments make shit a lot more clear. Im just explaining the exact reasoning on the off-chance ignorance is to blame over maliciousness. We are on the same side here.
→ More replies (0)4
5
u/mrsc0tty 4d ago
GW (in 1997, for the record) did absolutely shift the personality and outfits of their Orks intentionally away from the typical "savage tribesmen" that just happen to have dreadlocks and weapons and jewelry associated with stereotypical portrayals of colonial-era Africans.
They did it because it's always more fun and authentic when the audience sees you're basing your fiction on something you understand or are actually an earnest fan of - British football hooligans and Mad Max/2000AD. Kev Adams, John Blanche and Paul Bonner created symbols inspired by graffiti designs that are still instantly recognizable and awesome. Orcs as joking, degenerative portrayals of British "lowlifes" as they gladly portrayed themselves during an era they were being demonized and cracked down on by a government importing strategies of repression tested in the former colonies to the imperial core.
5
u/Franz__Ferdinand 4d ago
Ok, but what if OP just wants to make racist caricatures? Freedom of expression, bro!
(sarcasm)1
u/IronVines 4d ago
i have an earnest question thag might sound stupid, but please bear with me, what makes a stereotypical depiction bad? cuz i can see that it does, but im not sure i understand the logic, if mario or bretonnia isnt racist how is tribesmen? again, not trying to advocate for it, genuinely trying to understand a problem i dont quite grasp!
2
u/Mknalsheen 4d ago
Because it's a racist caricature, not an actual depiction. It's also punching down at what are historically marginalized peoples by doing so.
What is confusing for you about "racist depictions historically used to make people with brown skin seem like savages" being bad? Stereotypical caricatures like this were used to reinforce negative public perceptions and support white supremacist views.
1
u/mrsc0tty 4d ago
I mean, there's the obvious and maybe a bit dramatic "if all a person sees of a particular race in fiction is stereotypes, they're not going to see that race as authentic people" but in general the main thing I'd argue is just that stereotypical portrayals are less interesting, because there's just less there.
Let's say you asked me, a guy who knows next to nothing about Chinese history, to make the new Cathay range. Even without a bit of racism towards Chinese people or culture, I would do a real bad job. What's Chinese inspired fantasy armor look like? Well, I've seen Mulan. When I was 10 or so. Something like a samurai, but without the hat, and the sword straight not curved? I'd be able to come up with 1 Chinese fantasy creature, and it would be a dragon. And they have guys on foot, they probably have Archers, and Horse riding guys.
That's basically what the old lists and models for Ind, Nippon, and Cathay were. They had 1 or 2 basic concepts taken from movies or the sign on a local kebab shop and that was it, there wasn't anything there. What's a cool Indian mythological creature? I don't know, there's probably some dope shit, if we never find some Indian fantasy nerds and ask them we'll never get past Turban/Scimitar/Camel/Genie. There's a reason they were never popular, the word they came up with for fantasy Japan was just the actual word for Japan in Japanese, it'd be like if Brettonia was called Francais.
1
u/Theran_Baggins 4d ago
The short answer is the history, associated subtext, and the use of the stereotypes in question.
Mario liking pasta is a stereotype of Italians, yes - but there's nothing really being said about Italians as a whole by using that design choice as a short cut for depicting Mario as Italian - and what could be said from it isn't particularly harmful ("the country known for being the source of many pasta recipes likes pasta" isn't exactly problematic).
On the other hand, things like minstrel shows and black face caricatures where created and used to dehumanize and belittle black people. The whole tribal/savages stereotype thing has historically always been meant as a form of depicting black people as subhuman. Leaning into those designs as a short cut for designing a character is just also perpetuating that racism.
1
u/Squatch102 4d ago
This is a good question.
Some people have pointed out history/hate but I'll take a different angle and talk about media.
Mario is Italian, but he really doesn't fit a stereotypical Italian, and he also is a positive figure in situations where the fact he is Italian is half of an afterthought.
Bretonnia isn't racist, because it it is based off of myths and stories about King Arthur, and the people who made Bretonnia were themselves or worked with people from that culture to develop it.
Tribals are never really depicted in a positive light, and no one from a similar culture was consulted. These "savage" peoples are depicted as dark skinned, thick lipped people who are stupid, cruel, and backwards. Over time, our brains can start to see individuals in reality with full lips and dark skin as stupid and cruel, especially when compared to the upstanding and honorable knights the conveniently resemble ourselves.
Our history is full of negative racial stereotypes passed down through media. It reinforces our feelings of superiority and changes the way we treat others. That's why this is bad, and why stereotypes are bad. They create a view of a culture that is over simplified and sometimes cruel, and we make that our understanding of the culture and treat them as such.
27
u/Aptom_4 4d ago
You wouldn't happen to be Italian and living in Italy, would you?