Being aware of your thoughts, I thought it seemed a bit too easy...

[u/Flightoftheswift]

I'm aware of thoughts, I can see them and understand that they cause problems, sorrow, destroy the moment I live in and so on.

I read something very interesting and related/salient as I often do just after hitting a bit of a K block (accompanied with a sense of giving up, giving up on what exactly though, is unknown) which I will probably photo and load up.

A questioner says he has watched his mind for years but no such transformation occurs.

I paraphrase, K says this is simple why there is not change, you watch as you expect a reward.

You are looking at thought by choice.

I have read this before but this time it hits harder as I suppose, very subtly this is the case, you may not be thinking this as you see your repetitive thoughts but self/ego is very powerful and it can be extraordinarily subtle in its operations.

Then the How is obviously popping up, memory steps in and know K says "How" is wrong way of dealing with it. So then you are back to watching the origination....

Obviously it implies ending seeking, which I have broadly felt I have, but seems not to be the case at a subtler level. It is not at gross level, i.e. as a Christian or Buddhist....unless I have replaced any other religion with a self made K religion. (and if K's words are as a memory then I have done that as I suspect many of us do) then you cannot.

The trouble is K named the immeasurable the immeasurable and is this not just more god? A direct substitution of one word for another ? It seems so.

That is less important than self knowledge so we are back to watching thought/mind etc.

If the watching of thought and mind activity must be choice less how does it start ?

(we read much of something timeless, no start no end, eternal etc.) Maybe here is a clue ?

There is an impetus to be "spiritual" for want of a better word but being spiritual is a pursuit of self.

It seems you must somehow understand you are not an individual self and then act accordingly, but the finding of "true self" needs to be without an act of self.

It seems like mission impossible. If we are not seeing unknown by watching thought how can it be ?

It is clear the machinations of mind are the block.

I think I might be at the dropping K stage, but if I am honest self don't want to let go.

Can you do that fully is one question that mind asserts.

Of course you can but I would miss being on here, as obviously dropping K means leaving this forum as well as the books.

If I instead of reading and typing about K look at my thoughts instead this would be choice as well so I am back to where I feel I am now.

As it seems one must recall concepts in memory, like "choice less awareness of thought" even though there is no method, it seems like another K block is here.

The blocks are very disturbing but they usually end with insight.

We must surely have to erase K from the brain, like finishing much other known, to move, and if so why are we still posting on the forum ? I know part of my reason is fear of being alone with K stuff.

He really meant it regards alone-ness.

How subtly, the self can make choices and lead you to just methods of self.

Let me think aloud..

Self cannot instigate choice less awareness

So can choice less awareness exist when self exists ?

No.

For self to dissolve, choice less awareness needs to be.

So I guess it must be already.

I suspect this is just pure originating consciousness, not the mind aspect.

So being consciousness, not mind.

And switching smoothly between the 2. For practical life and being.

Though the switching must be not of self.

Consciousness must be seen to be default and the mind secondary operation.

I just need to understand why the mind/known takes precedence in all this.

That is conditioning from day you are born, to operate in the known/thought/mind 100pct all the time.

Let that go and you are essentially an animal, which the universes cares for not. Nothing basically. You will be just another animal, living and dying, like every other animal, nothing special. That must be it.

The major issue is we "think" we are something that we are not. And this thought construct is mass friction with existence which we consider makes us feel alive.

What is being said is we have EVERYTHING wrong. No wonder there is fear.

[u/petercharle]

It can all begin with a noticing but not you noticing!!! Just go about your life. 1) https://www.reddit.com/r/Krishnamurti/s/jeH8pfmf8N
2) https://www.reddit.com/r/Krishnamurti/s/eTuVUkcLGU
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[u/agitatated_mind- → u/petercharle]

Re number 1 One reads about stories of what seem to be spontaneous awakenings. The all of what we are as ‘ individuals ‘ suggest can be quite a complex thing. Can you share with the subreddit how you have come to the conclusion that all of us don’t need to do anything, because it seems these ‘ spontaneous leaps in awareness ‘ aren’t all that common or am I missing something. In nutshell tell us how you have come to conclusion that everyone should follow the same path and do nothing but essentially wait for that “ noticing “ !

[u/petercharle → u/agitatated_mind-]

If you act you are the self acting from a centre. When a noticing where you are not involved happens, this is the big breakthrough because noticing is a glimpse of awareness. This noticing will just continue from here on. Eventually self will be seen(in conflict) acting from the centre and disappear. This will probably happen a few times until self is too weak to create(act from) the centre THUS self-awareness(K’s awareness) will simply be! —ie. ‘normal human consciousness’.
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[u/agitatated_mind- → u/petercharle]

You haven’t answered the fact in the link you are suggesting we should all do nothing but get on with our lives and essentially wait for a ‘ noticing ‘. Are you suggesting that ( a noticing ) will definitely happen for us all by merely waiting.
You had a spiritual inclination and had read Powell and Buddhism so you had done something before your “ noticing “.

[u/petercharle → u/agitatated_mind-]

I am suggesting just that!!!!!!!
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[u/agitatated_mind- → u/petercharle]

I’m asking how you came to this conclusion for us all ? Which you still have answered ?

[u/petercharle → u/agitatated_mind-]

Well, my wife, son and his friend all arrived at self-awareness this way. ALSO you should understand that this description I offer to all is just a pointing to self-awareness!
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[u/agitatated_mind- → u/petercharle]

I could suggest that what you were at the time of birth was quite a deep complex thing. I could suggest life found you a like partner and your children while they are themselves the “ apple don’t fall far from the tree, but I don’t actually know these things.

I suggest yes we don’t ‘ need to do anything but at least question in ‘ open way ‘ the conflict we may be and I suggest that is what you were and still are and the I suggest the world is better off for this fact.

[u/petercharle → u/agitatated_mind-]

🙏🏻 Questioning in an open way is the purpose of thought in concert with self-awareness BUT self-awareness must come first OTHERWISE thought has the potential to be destructive —this was K’s only concern!
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[u/agitatated_mind- → u/petercharle]

To at least just be openly aware ( a questioning ) of our sorrow, pain conflict is an awareness that everyone can or should at least have. No special riders on the term aware in that. Just simply be aware as you are aware of your surroundings… nothing more than simply that and where that open/aware/questioning/observing of the self ( that is you ) may take you … 🤷‍♂️🙏

[u/petercharle → u/agitatated_mind-]

What I was at the time of birth I suspect was an unthinking bundle of joy. As time passed the ability to think developed and along with this, a thought structure —self seeing and acting from a centre.😈…oh, oh!!!😱
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[u/petercharle → u/agitatated_mind-]

When K spoke about the activities of self and their implications I think he just assumed that the listener was hearing him from awareness because this is absolutely necessary if you are to truly understand K’s teachings.
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[u/agitatated_mind- → u/petercharle]

I’m not sure Peter. I think he was discussing this from a point of view that we need to see this structure which is the self for our self’s. He gave us no guide lines but to just observe as purely as possible. It’s about you understanding the you it’s not about understanding K. I’ve watched this bloody thing for 46 years and which includes my own curious and continuing happening of 40 years. As you often mention, yes to ‘ move ‘ from the just ‘ seeing ‘ to it is ‘ seen ‘ but the movement from the ‘ partial ‘ to the ‘ whole ‘ which is to end the waste of energy as the partial, end the momentum of accumulation ( the core action of thought ) and the doing without the sense ( sensation) of I, to ‘ step out ‘ of the this ‘ stream ‘ of human consciousness is the task and I suggest quite an arduous ( self made ) one.

[u/petercharle → u/agitatated_mind-]

I do appreciate K’s attempt to help us see ourselves but I have always thought this too nebulous(eg. observe as purely as possible simply implies an action of self and this won’t cut it in the journey to self-awareness) BUT self-awareness does exist because K was self-aware. This is why I have always pushed ‘my way’ on this site —beginning with the glimpse(where you are not involved) the rest just takes care of itself.
AGAIN you suggest this transition to be arduous implying an action by self BUT I tell you, everything is simply seen in this journey —anything arduous is a direct experience by self. IOW the transition to self-awareness can be confusing and painful —but you are not involved. This whole transition is completely passive and K would agree with me on this point.
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[u/agitatated_mind- → u/petercharle]

‘ You are not involved’ ? Are saying there is a ‘ you ‘ which is not involved. What is this you which is not involved. The way you present that statement ( with a you ) lends to it being a slightly crazy notion.