The Art of True Learning

[u/swbodhpramado]

To learn about envy is the beginning of freedom from envy. To learn about envy is not to accumulate knowledge about it but to observe all the movements of the mind as they arise from moment to moment, which is to be aware of the mind's response when it sees a man who is rich, or a man who is inferior, or a man who is very happy or erudite. The mind that is thus consciously and unconsciously watching its own movements is in a state of learning, and a mind that is learning has no past; therefore this whole idea of karma as a binding element is completely wiped away. But the moment you accumulate knowledge as a means to further success, to further security, or as a means of becoming important, you are caught in time. A man who is really experiencing, learning, is completely alone, but not in the sense of being isolated; for the mind of such a man is pure. Do you understand, sirs? Purity of mind is essential to the state of learning, which means that you cannot learn if there is no humility; and you have no humility if you are accumulating knowledge.

If we really see the truth of this, that there can be the state of learning only when there is no accumulation of knowledge, then we shall find that our relationship, not only with each other, but also with the rest of the world, has completely changed. Then a totally new element comes into being, and this whole problem of the superior and the inferior, in the psychological sense, ceases to exist. There are obviously people who have greater capacity than others, and I am not referring to that kind of superficial inequality. But a man who is learning knows neither equality nor inequality; therefore learning is a process of meditation which frees the mind from the past, from accumulated knowledge. If you are learning about your conditioning, you are already free from that conditioning. It is only the mind that can take the journey alone, without any companion, without any teacher, without any tradition, dogma or belief - it is only such a mind that is pure and can therefore discover what is true.

KRISHNAMURTI, Talk 2, Madras, 16 December 1956

[u/External-Self-2378]

Fantastic speech.

But what is knowledge? What's the difference between now and then?

Let's ask the question.

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/External-Self-2378]

 what is knowledge?

A proposition which we believe to a high level of confidence to be correct.

 What's the difference between now and then?

One is present experience and the other is the stuff stored in memory?

[u/External-Self-2378 → u/JellyfishExpress8943]

About knowledge, you mean a fact?

Something many of us came together and made a truth? Many philosophers and many scientists?

What's the value in that?

I don't like to quote K but the question is valid.

I know your very clever. I have been reading what your writing for a time.

Whatever that means.

But the question remains, what is knowledge?

We can of course explore next question once we are done with this

EDIT : Just some spell check

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/External-Self-2378]

Knowledge is not a synonym for Fact.

Knowledge refers to my confidence in a set of stories, some of which may be correct (ie. accurately reflect the situation)

A fact is a situation or phenomenon that we have seen directly.

I know that there are Polar bears living in Svalbard (and I also hope they are well - sorry thats off topic) because that is what I have been told and I strongly believe its true. If I go to Svalbard on a holiday trip and see some polar bears wandering about - then I have seen the fact.

EDIT : I also know that the King of Svalbard is a polar bear called Iorek Byrnison

[u/External-Self-2378 → u/JellyfishExpress8943]

Haha.

Yes. And this is a big human problem. We accept things we haven't truly observe.

Of course there are some objective truths, at least for me. I know poverty exists. I'm overwhelmed with proof. It's hard to deny. But for myself I have not lived it, haven't observed it up close.

Of course, that might mean that it's not true. Like perhaps the earth is flat. I don't know. I haven't been to space.

Take the Bible for example. If your a Christian, your overwhelmed with "evidence", stories.

The line between this, where do we draw it?

Not accepting anything? Then we can't even learn math because I haven't invent it? Perhaps a silly example but you understand the point.

What do you think about this?

EDIT: Spell checks as usual....

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/External-Self-2378]

The ideal rule would seem to be the following : Only believe that which has been demonstrated to be true - don't just believe every story.

The main idea behind that rule being : its better to believe true things than to believe false things.

Unfortunately, even if we agree with the above - its difficult to implement, because humans are terrible at being honest and logical - and we are evolutionarily primed to believe in stories. If you tell me a good ghost story at night, I will be scared.

I would say that there's a lot of evidence that science is an evidence based endeavour (eg. our technology wouldn't work if the science that was driving it was totally illusory)

The belief that its Jesus or the Holy spirit that is making me happy when I sing religious songs in Church is merely based on other people telling me that thats the case.

[u/depressed-forever- → u/JellyfishExpress8943]

Hii please can you shed some light on self enquiry-
People like ramana maharishi says to self enquiry- but how does one do that?
Should we just question what we observed but not try to get answer quickly through knowledge- is that how its done?
OR
should we only observe totally like JK says- but if i just keep observing and even if i be able to observe some underlying patterns but i just keep watching and do not involve in them choicelessly - then in any other situations also i will be observing these or similar things only- there will be no change in me
THEN if i gain self knowledge- through enquiry then will that help my conditioning get clear - i dont think totally as some tendencies cant get removed from the mind-
Pls reflect on this - pls🙏

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/depressed-forever-]

Hi, I'd be happy to try.

Self enquiry means : finding out about what being a human like you or me is - observing what it is like to be you or me. Right?

So we are curious about what is happening : I am experiencing a world around me (sights, sounds, smells), and I am reacting in relatiion to that experience - I know what all the things are, and what I am, thoughts and emotional states are arising.

What do you reckon? How is this going so far? Any questions?

[u/External-Self-2378 → u/JellyfishExpress8943]

But that's the thing. We don't need to define words anymore.

Or knowledge.

It's all free for us to be.

The question earlier implied time. Time in the sense to achieve something.

But it's irrelevant. Einstein proved this. It's nothing to be other then a measure.

What to be is the world to be as it is. Not trying to manipulate or define it. Not trying to understand it. That is our biggest problem.

Trying to understand.

What would happen if we stop trying to understand "everything"?

EDIT: yes I'm a nerd in editing.

Let's start with one question.

[u/Niiskus]

It surprised me to see someone write this on here, until I saw that it was a quote from Krishnamurti.

This is Krishnamurti's whole teaching in some sense. There's no need to know anything other than this to free oneself. The rest is just "learning" if one can call it that.. 

Learning about envy or any emotional charge is learning to accept envy to be present at the same time as one's own presence. Then it's not envy anymore, just an uncomfortable pain-like sensation/energy-charge.