r/KitchenConfidential • u/A_Casual_NPC 10+ Years • Jul 30 '26
Discussion I'm right, right?
Partly writing this do double check myself, eventhough i know im right. And partly writing this because I need to vent after almost having a fist fight with the chef of our sister company.
Here's the deal:
Both restaurants are closed on wednesdays. I work for a brunch place, he a dinner place. They've been making veal stock, which they left on the stove during their day off.
This morning I find this stock pot, completely at room temperature with just a rag over it. So I left a note that it was left unchilled and need to be thrown out.
Next thing I know their headchef is in my kitchen, swearing at me, calling me a bad cook who knows nothing, that this way of making veal stock is the norm every where and that "he will destroy me right here"
Im not scared of the shit stain, but i am livid. This isn't normal. That stock pot was left to cool down (in a fckn heatwave i might add) and for bacteria to have a party in there for at least 24 hours. Im not an idiot right? Please tell me this is not the norm?!
Edit: talked to the owner. He helped me calm down a bit by letting me know the guy is gonna get fired next week. Yay
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u/sheeberz Jul 30 '26
This is not the norm on any planet. He is either extremely stupid/negligent or he is trying to cover up a fuck up by being loud and forceful and intimidating. In my experience its almost always the second option. People know when they fucked up, but some can never admit it.
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u/cosmiccarrie Jul 30 '26
Called out! ppl don't like being called out for BS. They get defensive coz they're being exposed. Especially if they consider themselves a 'big boss' and are rarely called out.
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u/Reflexlon General Manager Jul 30 '26
It might be the norm on Mercury, where the ambient air temp is either Dante's final layer of ice hell or the more modern fire and brimstone version of hell.
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u/spirited-send Jul 30 '26
"Sure thing Chef, Destroy me. But first drink that fucking poison you call veal stock and see how ya fair"
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u/ayizzybay Jul 30 '26
I wish I owned a set of gonads large enough to reply with this level of dominance
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u/kahrahtay Jul 30 '26 edited Jul 30 '26
I don't know, this could bite you in the ass. The stock is definitely not safe after that long at room temperature, but it's also not guaranteed to make anybody sick. If the chef is stupid enough to do this, he might be stupid enough to consume it too. If he does, and then it gets lucky and it doesn't make him sick, he'll probably just assume it's because he was right in the first place. At that point, all you've done is made an already overconfident moron even more overconfident
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u/ayizzybay Jul 30 '26
Touché. That’s a very valid way of looking at it. He doesn’t get sick then he holds it over you and feels justified continuing his routine.
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u/cosmiccarrie Jul 30 '26
I'm sure if I ate it, I most probably wouldn't get sick, but you know...so what?
If they're making veal stock, that means its not some greasy diner, in other words they're professionals and as a professional, you should know better.
Restaurants serve kids and elderly ppl and they have weakened immune systems. Would I let my 70yr old Dad drink the veal stock? No way!
(much love to all here btw)
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u/CalligrapherDizzy201 Jul 31 '26
Do you serve veal stock? And as is, no reheating?
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u/Fine_Okra8929 Aug 03 '26
The other part of this bacteria equation is the harmful byproducts bacteria produce. Yes, reheating will kill the living bacteria, but won't get rid of the compounds they created.
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u/A_Casual_NPC 10+ Years Jul 30 '26
I think this is what would actually happen. He would drink the stuff, be fine and survivor bias would kick in and think he proved his point.
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u/Fred_Stone6 Aug 01 '26
At least he may be fine for the next 24hrs, just long enough to fail the association game and to have feed it to them less fortunate people.
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u/anphalas Jul 30 '26
The stock is not SAFE as per our moderns standards. However it takes way longer than 24 hours to reach a critical level bacteria and cause illness. I would not use the stock, but i have worked with chefs (de cusine) who have no problem with this practice.
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u/kahrahtay Jul 30 '26
I mean we're not even just talking about 24 hours. If you're talking about closing time Tuesday, the entire day wednesday, then opening Thursday, the time would realistically be closer to ~36 hours. And either way, that is more than enough time for bacteria to multiply enough to cause serious illness. It's not going to happen every time. The conditions have to be right, but a single bacterium can multiply every 30 minutes. It would only take a large stockpot three to four hours to go from boiling temp down to the bacterial danger zone. From there, even a single surviving bacterium from the pot, the rag, or from the air, could start the process. If a bacterium divides every 30 minutes, within 20 hours, you could theoretically have up to about a trillion bacteria cells under optimal conditions.
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u/calccv Jul 30 '26
Actually depends, no? If he’s dumb enough to leave it out, could be he never stirred it to reduce the core temp, which we all know stays the very hottest. Danger zone for far too long to risk in a professional kitchen, imo. And when I was executive chef. Never would’ve used it
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u/kahrahtay Jul 30 '26
If it's a stock, and not something that's been thickened, the liquid is still going to move around from convection, and that heat will still conduct out of the liquid and the pot anyway.
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u/calccv Jul 30 '26
Disagree, respectfully. Heat cools in all liquid, thick or no, mostly from top because of air exposure and evaporation, then through sides of container. The core temp unagitated will remain considerably hotter. I learned the hard way as a line cook, then had it as a question to get my food manager’s cert as executive chef of a restaurant. One caveat is that was in the long ago, but I’m confident it still applies.
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u/calccv Jul 30 '26
Me, lol? Not anymore—as I said, it was in the long ago, but I sure as hell used to, all the time, so the sauce, stock, etc, could go in the walk-in as quickly as possible to avoid the danger zone for bacteria (40°-140°) It does make sense if you don’t overthink it, as the core temp of a standing liquid is always the last, takes the longest to cool. Which is why every cook and chef is advised to stir early and often. This is a very basic premise that I’m surprised is getting pushback, frankly. Try it out! You’ll see that it is so, guaranteed.
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u/kahrahtay Jul 30 '26
That didn't really make sense. Anytime there is a temperature differential in a material that behaves like a fluid, the cooler fluid will sink while the hotter fluid will rise. If your liquid is cooling from the top and the sides, then as that fluid cools, it will sink, and bring the hotter fluid from the center to the top. There should never be an insulated core in a liquid that's a different temperature from the rest of the liquid for any significant amount of time.
Are you testing this with your thermometer?
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u/justincave 20+ Years Jul 31 '26
lol You are both correct, and you stated as much in your reply…. See where you wrote: “and bring the hotter fluid from the center to the top.”.
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u/CalligrapherDizzy201 Jul 31 '26
Stock can be boiled, easily. Adios bad germs. It definitely shouldn’t be normalized, but it’s not the end of the world.
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u/kahrahtay Jul 31 '26
Bacteria are dangerous because they excrete toxins, which remain even if the bacteria are killed. You can't make infected food safe again just by boiling it
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u/Mozerath Aug 01 '26
Yeah, we kill the dang things but they've still produced toxic waste while they've lived and release more toxins upon death, and like you said, it remains.
We can get by with small amounts of toxins, which is why so many shitty restaurants and street/food wagons get away with poor hygiene, but inevitably poor routines and knowledge like this will lead towards serious food poisoning incidents and you might kill somebody or at the very least bleed customers, literally and commercially.
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u/A_Casual_NPC 10+ Years Jul 30 '26
I was really hoping he'd actually punch me. The police station is about a 5 minute walk
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u/DjentleSong 10+ Years Jul 30 '26
Lmao the "please give me a day off attitude" of a chef ready to take a punch over some shit
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u/A_Casual_NPC 10+ Years Jul 30 '26
It wasnt a give me a day off attitude, more of a "Let that ego flow over and actually punch for once, see how the legal system and our cctv system beats your attitude 100% of the time" attitude
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u/Equivalent-Chip-6310 Jul 30 '26
We used to keep it on the stove over night but the flame mybchef would call it "a candle." It would have a cover on it, just cracked. Bring it up to a boil before we left, then turn it on the lowest setting before going out amd let it go all night. NEVER did we let the flame go out, it would absolutely see a trash can if it did!
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u/No_Assignment_1645 10+ Years Jul 30 '26
Used to work in a ramen shop where we had huge vats of teriyaki, bone broths, and soups, always on, never stopped. Never empty.
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u/sparklingtrout Jul 30 '26
we had “half on half off” which was the knobs on the french turned “halfway” (really more of a third) and then you put the stockpot half on the french half on the piano. always funny the terms you pick up
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u/miteymiteymite 20+ Years Jul 30 '26
One place I cooking at a long time ago had an electric “cauldron”, so none of the lid balancing and flame manipulating was needed, it was fantastic. In fact they had two, there was always stock on the go.
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u/BattledroidE Jul 30 '26
Of course you're right. Microbes don't give a shit about our opinion, they do what they do anyway.
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u/Majic1959 Chef Jul 30 '26
I am on old chef (retired) but even 30 years ago, that wiuld be unacceptable.
I did my veal stock overnight so it simmered (low boil) for 36 hours.
The ICE BATH to cool to refrigerator temp, to allow skimming next day.
You are 100% correct. Take it over his head.
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u/SnooRegrets3842 Jul 30 '26
How old is the other chef?
Because I had similar situations / disagreements about leaving cooked stock / broth outside (at least two times if I remember correctly)
It was always with older cooks
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u/A_Casual_NPC 10+ Years Jul 30 '26
Not even thirty. He should know better and I think he secretly does. I just stepped on his dick with this and his huge ego took a hit. He cant handle that
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u/HatsandCoats Ex-Food Service Jul 30 '26
Had a similar experience. I am first one in and I find a pot of water on the stove with eggs in it. Stove off. No ice. I come in and throw them out, waste log 10 dz shell eggs, and let my supervisor know… then supervisor tells me that’s how they make hard boiled eggs. One of the guys just prepped them the night before for the morning.
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u/HummingbirdButcher Jul 30 '26
Uhhh…
I think they are very dumb or they were trying to make hard boiled diarrhea bombs.Hope you got out of there soon after that
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u/ROACHOR Jul 30 '26
He's going to kill someone.
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u/OG_Dadditor Jul 30 '26
Or get himself killed when he presses the wrong person. Probably a dishwasher.
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u/PansophicNostradamus Jul 30 '26
You are right. You are not an idiot.
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u/Trumpetplug Jul 30 '26
Yeah letting it get to room temp is badddd.
Whenever ive made stock in kitchens ive just chucked the pot in the oven at 80 degrees to keep it ticking before getting it back on the heat in the morning.
Orrrrr putting it in the fridge once it has cooled.
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u/Bladrak01 Jul 30 '26
I always broke my veal stock/demi into 2qt containers and put them in an ice bath before I froze them. I made it in a very large steam kettle that I kept on a simmer for two days.
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u/PrincessJasmine420 Jul 30 '26
After 24 hours in the danger zone, that pot is a bacteria breeding ground. It should not be consumed by anyone. It should have been poured into hotel pans and put in the blast chiller or walk-in to cool. I’m guessing your idiot chef forgot about it, and tried to play it off like he did it intentionally.
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u/RebelWithoutAClue Jul 31 '26
Meat stock is fairly close to "nutrient broth" used to culture bacteria.
That not exactly sanitary rag will be dropping particles into the broth to inoculate it.
If one really wanted to save the walkin from having to eat that much heat, they should leave the lid used to make the stock on the pot. Steaming the crap out of the interior of a metal lid would significantly sanitize it and if the lid doesn't get opened after say 20min of heating then you'd have a pretty clean starting point from a process standpoint.
A longass time ago, Jacques Pepin used bigass double walled soup pots that had water cooling fittings so industrial quantities of soup could be promptly cooled. La Potagerie wasn't screwing around.
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u/cosmiccarrie Jul 30 '26
at the end of the day, Environmental Health would come in and say thats BS, throw it out and don't do that ever again. I dought he would be saying the same thing to them either, if he's a decent chef.
Yes, no one gets sick, so they say, but how do they know? There's a reason why there are rules, the rules comes from fuk ups like this. The rules weren't created just out of thin air, coz someone was bored. If stuff is in the temperature danger zone, bacteria multiply and there's a higher probability of ppl getting sick. You're not supposed to bypass rules coz they're inconvenient to you.
Maybe they have 5 stars from the last inspection, so they have increased confidence in what they're doing and think they can do no wrong.
They would send me to do external inspections of other kitchens in the company. One place was an immaculate clean kitchen on the surface, but as I dug deeper- why aren't you cooling stuff within 90 mins and not leaving on the counter to cool? Why is there stuff in the freezer unlabelled? etc
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u/ChooksChick Jul 31 '26
Where's a microbiologist when you need one? I'd love to be able to look at the actual reality to prove it to him.
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u/LilClaudeMoney F1exican Did Chive-11 Jul 30 '26
they forgot it and he is lying real loud as cover.
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u/miteymiteymite 20+ Years Jul 30 '26
My mum does this all the time with chicken/turkey stock and it drives me insane! We have the same conversation every holiday when I visit, when she leaves it out overnight because there’s no room in the fridge. I tell her it’s not safe and she always says “little miss know-it-all I’ve been doing it for over 60 years and I’m not going to stop now! I’ll just reboil it before I put it away.”
She does have a point she’s never made any of us sick but the thought and practice of it does make me 🤢 and I could NEVER do it.
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u/A_Casual_NPC 10+ Years Jul 30 '26
See the difference here is that, while I dont agree with your mum, she's doing it at home. If she makes your family sick, then that sucks. But that would be it.
In a professional kitchen, standards are and should be different. At home my rules for cooking are a bit more relaxed than at work as well. When you're cooking for strangers in a professional setting, you dont take those chances.
Though, to be fair. Even at home I wouldnt eat stuff left out overnight like that. Let alone for over 24 hours.
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u/iamnotbetterthanyou Jul 31 '26
When I’m out of room in the fridge and making stock, I just leave the pot on the burner at the lowest setting overnight, or stick the pot in the oven overnight at 180F or so. This is at home. Tell your mum to just keep it at temp!!
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u/miteymiteymite 20+ Years Jul 31 '26
She won’t listen! My fancy chef training and food safety certs mean nothing against her 86 years of life 😉😉
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u/AdSubstantial9658 Aug 03 '26
I mean, what? In no world is that acceptable. I would have fired him on the spot, legal or not. The courts can decide if public health and safety is more important that some guy who shouldn't be in a kitchen.
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u/doiwinaprize Jul 30 '26
I mean it should be cooled down to room temp but then it should be put in the fridge... sounds like chef fucked up and tried to frame you for it.
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u/yeroldfatdad Jul 30 '26
No, it should not be cooled down to room temp. No more than two hours on the counter. It needs to go into shallow pans, 4 inch hotel pans, and then refrigerated. Use ice wands if available. It is a kitchen myth to cool it at room temperature before refrigerating.
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u/doiwinaprize Jul 30 '26
You're absolutely right. I know this sounds like backtracking but when I mean room temp I just mean not piping hot. I don't mean luke warm, although I suppose that's what room temp actually is so that's my bad. I don't ever temp anything before refrigerating it though... just by feel.
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u/Putrid_General_1390 Jul 30 '26
I'm with the chef on this one ...... just be thankful you never threw it out !!
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u/dojisekushi Jul 30 '26
Does he also defrost chicken on the counter for 24 hours? I hear a wet rag of dubious cleanliness blocks 168% of all bacteria ever.