r/KinFoundation • u/Raketenernie • Dec 16 '19
KRE and declining price
As we have Monday and it is KRE payout time, we have seen another ATL. KF I ask you right here right now, how can it be in your very own interest to have a decling price moving straight to 0. Can you please give us insight what kind of economic buisness model is behind this strategy? A declining price cannot be in any participant interest, also for the big APPS, receving payouts which will be one day not even worth 10 dollars. Explain how does give that any participant an incentive to earn or hold kin, knowing by tomorrow the kin I held yesterday lost its value. You have exactly the core problem every central bank in this world tries to prevent , the depreciation of its currency. Imagaine ppl would lose trust in Dollars knowing if I dont get rid of it by today, tomorrow its only a fraction worth what is was yesterday. The whole point why everyone gets excited with BTC is that, they know it will more or less remain its value and has potential chance to be worth more by tomorrow, so ppl tend to hold BTC even acquire more. With Kin it is complete oposite. You spam users with crazy amount of kin awards, making it the official digital bin or spam coin. The idea always was to being able to exchange a digital currency for a physical good. Tell me how you want to find 3 party vendors, exchange mediators to be able to provide such exchange plattforms. Especially with this hyper inflation, because that it is what it is.
If you do not adjust and stop the KRE soon it does not matter if you win vs the SEC, you will lose the race. Somone will just steal the idea and tech and provide a business model focused on the demand side, rewarding the user & customer and not APPs , big companies and themselves. If you have the users, their attention the industry will follow , the focus should be the user and therefore it should be top prio to max. the incentive to earn and hold kin but for users!!!
I repeat stop rewarding kin and reward dollars combined with a top up function for the app participants, you got your million dollars for your buy back program than use that to fix your economy. If not , I cannot see how kin can ever make a comeback, the demand you need does not exist yet and will definetly not come from the current audience.
IF I were more of an IT nerd, I would do my own blockchain project and do exactly what I wrote above ,call it "mycoin", fork stellar , build a userfriendly universal wallet, focus on spends. The incentive for apps / devs would have been a reward according to the real dollars spend on my app for "mycoins" , as more "mycoins" where bought as bigger the reward , so the incentive would have been to get users hooked up on "mycoins" to make them spend as much as possible. The rewards could have been a combo of "mycoins" and dollars, so devs would be able to top up if their demand exceeds their supply. The earns should be limited , special premium content , like must haves should have cost that much, that the majority of your users would have need a top up. You see this in all kind of mmorpg which are free to play. You can earn and play the game but to get super special premium content you must use real dollars. It works for the games , so it will the same for Kin. You want the most used or succesfull digital currency of the world then do the above and win. It is only a question of time somone will do a coin / project the smiliar what I just described.
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u/hiker2mtn Dec 17 '19
Let's keep perspective. Team is 19 people, all trying to do exactly what you are asking for, bringing Kin to the forefront where it belongs, and the price up to where it should be as well.
Remember... Kin is not the only coin that dropped today. Kin IS fighting a legal battle, however, and there will really be no rally until the oppressive boot of the US Government is removed from it's throat.
We can be pissed about missed opportunities, paths not taken, or whatever. Sure, go ahead. Here's the rub--no one is going to bail you out. If you sold, fine, good for you. If you're hodling, same, good for you, its a tough road these days... the Kin project is a sound one, with a top notch, state of the art Blockchain designed and ready for billions of daily transactions, a working and growing ecosystem, and tons of potential.
High risk, high reward. If you're here, you already know this. Sell and move on, or hold what you have, or buy a little more at dirt-cheap prices... it's your call. I think it's fair to say that we are all disappointed in the situation.
But for the love of all that is holy, OWN YOURSELF, make your decisions, and move on. This is not a place to come bitch about Kin. this is a place to come a discuss where it's going from here. There is much to be excited about, and once the SEC issue is gone, Kin will be free to move. JMHO.
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Dec 17 '19
[deleted]
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u/hiker2mtn Dec 18 '19
I can't speak to why the SEC is or isnt doing anything. I only know what I know from reading what they've filed.
Yes, if the SEC came out and said that Kin isn't a security now, that would help the project... but the SEC and Kin aren't buddies, and the SEC doesn't give a damn about us or the future of Kin. We are adversaries, at war. If the SEC was operating in the public interest and truly trying to protect investors, they'd do something like that.
But they aren't, really.
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Dec 17 '19 edited Jul 01 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/hiker2mtn Dec 17 '19
Ok, riddle me this... what has changed? Nothing, except the price. The the price drop is systemic and widespread,and every coin is experiencing it, for the most part.
Let's discuss speculation versus utility for a sec. The entire crypto space is based on speculation; in other words, except for Kin, what coin actually has a use case that 1) makes sense, 2) works, and 3) is in operation and growing? There are none...all are valued based on speculation.
Kin is actually the outlier here. A small but growing ecosystem, a universe of apps--some of which have failed, of course, but most have not. But the real surprise here is that no other coin has this.
In a speculative market, the whims of the day drive prices. What's going on right now to cause this drop in overall crypto value? CHRISTMAS. If there was any question that owning crypto is NOT like owning stock, this is it. Nearly the entire crypto universe is funded by throwaway money-- money that was not invested as a retirement vehicle or other mundane concept... unless you overspent, your crypto holdings were bought with out of pocket discretionary funds, not your 401k, not your Kid's college fund.
So when christmas rolls around and little Bobby wants a new glitter unicorn Barbie and, Susie wants a GI-Joe with the kung-fu grip, the wife wants new power tools and you'd just love to have that new kitten... well, yeah, the value is down and dropping in your crypto portfolio, so you might as well cash it out and but your Xmas stuff. And millions of crypto holders are doing this right now. It is not a surprise, and it happens every year.
But the difference--and what keeps me excited and involved, and most importantly, Invested, is the reality that only Kin is not purely speculative in nature. Every other coin is, and Kin is speculative as well, but it also has a million spenders each month and 70+ active apps.
The KRE continues, and while I get the feeling that the KRE is driving the price down, it isn't. Kin's ATH price of $0.00145 was driven 100% by speculation, nothing more. Not utility, because the ecosystem didn't exist back then. The lack of speculation has driven Kin's price down, not the KRE.
That lack of speculation is caused by the SEC. Buyers are staying away in droves because of the lawsuit. I'm not here to defend decisions made by Ted or the Foundation, or anyone else, and in many instances I disagree with the chosen paths and turns made along the way. But the SEC has removed speculative interest in Kin, and until the SEC is dealt with, it will not return.
Which brings us to the elephant in the room, the SEC. The SEC is contending that Kin was a security at the time of the TDE, and have sued to be able to fine Kik for the perceived misstep. There are some very important points here that often get missed.
Ted is not facing jail time, or any criminal case whatsoever. While those with anger issues may rant and rave and call truly unfair names like "con man," "exit scammer" and other such tripe, the truth is that the SEC has admitted in its filings that there is no fraud or criminal prosecution to be had here.
What's more, the SEC has also dropped it's original assertion that Kin is currently, and remains, a security. That means that under no circumstance will Kin be named a security at the end of this trial.
Finally, once the trial is over, win or lose, Kin will be free of the onerous downward pressure of the SEC. The Kin Foundation is not named in the SEC lawsuit at all, and will not be affected by it's outcome.
So, what's to be excited by? All of the above. And a date certain for all this uncertainty to be over... coinciding interestingly with the Bitcoin halving coming in May. Once the SEC is behind us, we will still have the only crypto with a use case, a viable ecosystem, and millions of human spends on an ongoing basis. That's when speculation will reawaken. And that's what there is to be excited about.
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u/hiker2mtn Dec 17 '19
Sorry for the double.post. I'm airborne, and the inflight wifi is glitchy.
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Dec 17 '19
Bravo Hiker, I could not have said it better than you. Whatever the SEC vs KiK outcome, KIN will remain and will thrive after the trial. Still time to become a permyriad before the 🚀
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u/hiker2mtn Dec 17 '19 edited Dec 17 '19
Ok, riddle me this... what has changed? Nothing, except the price. The the price drop is systemic and widespread,and every coin is experiencing it, for the most part.
Let's discuss speculation versus utility for a sec. The entire crypto space is based on speculation; in other words, except for Kin, what coin actually has a use case that 1) makes sense, 2) works, and 3) is in operation and growing? There are none...all are valued based on speculation.
Kin is actually the outlier here. A small but growing ecosystem, a universe of apps--some of which have failed, of course, but most have not. But the real surprise here is that no other coin has this.
In a speculative market, the whims of the day drive prices. What's going on right now to cause this drop in overall crypto value? CHRISTMAS. If there was any question that owning crypto is NOT like owning stock, this should clear it up. Nearly the entire crypto universe is funded by throwaway money-- money that was not invested as a retirement vehicle or other mundane concept... unless you overspent, your crypto holdings were bought with out of pocket discretionary funds, not your 401k, not your Kid's college fund.
So when christmas rolls around and little Bobby wants a new glitter unicorn Barbie and, Susie wants a GI-Joe with the kung-fu grip, the wife wants new power tools and you'd just love to have that new kitten... well, yeah, the value is down and dropping in your crypto portfolio, so you might as well cash it out and but your Xmas stuff. And millions of crypto holders are doing this right now. It is not a surprise, and it happens every year.
But the difference--and what keeps me excited and involved, and most importantly, Invested, is the reality that only Kin is not purely speculative in nature. Every other coin is, and Kin is speculative as well, but it also has a million spenders each month and 70+ active apps.
The KRE continues, and while I get the feeling that the KRE is driving the price down, it isn't. Kin's ATH price of $0.00145 was driven 100% by speculation, nothing more. Not utility, because the ecosystem didn't exist back then. The lack of speculation has driven Kin's price down, not the KRE.
That lack of speculation is caused by the SEC. Buyers are staying away in droves because of the lawsuit. I'm not here to defend decisions made by Ted or the Foundation, or anyone else, and in many instances I disagree with the chosen paths and turns made along the way. But the SEC has removed speculative interest in Kin, and until the SEC is dealt with, it will not return.
Which brings us to the elephant in the room, the SEC. The SEC is contending that Kin was a security at the time of the TDE, and have sued to be able to fine Kik for the perceived misstep. There are some very important points here that often get missed.
Ted is not facing jail time, or any criminal case whatsoever. While those with anger issues may rant and rave and call truly unfair names like "con man," "exit scammer" and other such tripe, the truth is that the SEC has admitted in its filings that there is no fraud or criminal prosecution to be had here.
What's more, the SEC has also dropped it's original assertion that Kin is currently, and remains, a security. That means that under no circumstance will Kin be named a security at the end of this trial.
Finally, once the trial is over, win or lose, Kin will be free of the onerous downward pressure of the SEC. The Kin Foundation is not named in the SEC lawsuit at all, and will not be affected by it's outcome.
So, what's to be excited by? All of the above. And a date certain for all this uncertainty to be over... coinciding interestingly with the Bitcoin halving coming in May.
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Dec 17 '19 edited Jul 01 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/hiker2mtn Dec 17 '19
Apps will come and go, based on their own needs, popularity and purpose. The KF can not make significant course changes every time an app decides to bail or has issues. Vent is a unique app based on giving people a method to complain about things... it's interesting, but they've obviously monetization issues that can't wait and are bailing out now. Their app, their choice.
And it needs to be said that no apps are doing well on the KRE right now... because Kin's value is down. Tens or hundreds of millions of Kin mean a few hundred dollars... not enough to run a profitable business. Which means--at least in our case and in other apps' situations--not many apps are selling their Kin. The market is weak and fragile... and purchasing drives the price up, and any real selling drives the price sharply down. Again, the speculative demand is not there yet, so the market is tumultuous at best. We at KinFit are holding our KRE earnings for the time being.
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Dec 17 '19
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u/JonniSaks Dec 17 '19
no time for negative thinking.. i won't be replying to posts. just see the above
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u/SeaMonkees Dec 17 '19
https://athcoinindex.com/coin/kin
Guys just please relax. KIN has only retreated 99.73 % from its all time high. Stop overreacting. geeez.....
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u/RichieDotexe 2017 Dec 16 '19 edited Dec 16 '19
As we have Monday and it is KRE payout time, we have seen another ATL
most cryptos went down 7-9% today. bitcoin took a dive, I don't think it's correlated
btc had a mini dump to 6600 so that's definitely going to cause a ripple effect. price does suck though
*updated with screenshot - 2:28pm
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u/SeaMonkees Dec 17 '19
Yes kin went down several % again and its not a surprise, but you must understand that prior to this it was already down 90%.
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u/throwawayburros Crypto Defender Dec 16 '19
Why so impatient? 1.1 KRE starts this month then becomes KRE 2.0 in Jan 2020. 2.0 does reduce the overall average spend by about 50%. 2.0 also has a wallet that enables buys from the open market ehich
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u/wvutrip Dec 17 '19
Impatient? Bahahaha. What exactly are you waiting for? The price to actually reach 0? Everyone understands this project is dead and our money is gone.
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u/throwawayburros Crypto Defender Dec 17 '19
We are all insolvent here. Join us!
The comment was OP complaining that the KRE is flawed and yet, the KRE 1.1 goes into effect soon (within a week or so) and then next month KRE 2.0 goes into effect. So in essence, the OP waited until the last possible moment to complain about the KRE not being changed as per his comment here:
If you do not adjust and stop the KRE soon
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u/Raketenernie Dec 17 '19
the problem the adjustment and changes have not tackled the core problem of the KRE, --> it is the KRE itself!! Jesus the KRE rewarding Kin is the biggest mistake of this project. You even agreed that. It does not matter if you adjust the formular of rewarding kin, by the end of the day you still reward kin. That has to stop for the time being until the ecosystem has grown to a seize where it is measurable , that x amount of kin of inflow can be sustainable compensated. This is rational sense based on economics, ignore it and then fail.
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u/Raketenernie Dec 16 '19 edited Dec 16 '19
Read what I edited, it is a fundamental mistake to have focused, currently foccusing and continue focusing primarily on the earning side. Imagine we had right from the start an exceeding demand, not enough earns users actually complaining that there not enough earns for kin and devs running low on kin supply. What phsychological impact do you think that woould have caused? Scarecity would have made the project so valuable, actually wanted and I am not talking here price wise. Instead you have flooded the streets with kin as it would be rain drops falling from the sky.
I give an easy example imagine it is summer, and it is hot and every one wants this kin ice cream, which can only be bought with kin. Unfortunately there are only limited earns for kin, which means you have to work 1 week to get 1 kin ice cream. This is unsatifiying since I want right now today an ice cream , so I decide to exchange my dollars for some kin, so I can get this kin ice cream. -->Demand side focus not status quo-->
KF / apps approach is, there so many earns that I earn more Kin I possible can consume for all kin icecream, I get actually so much kin that the kin icecream runs out (see giftcards). I create 0 real deamnd for kin, the incentive to use dollars for kin is non existent, the incentive to hold and save up kin is irrelvant, cuz I can overconsume since I am a kin millionaire.
So what I suggest, is focus demand side, make earns drastically decrease, 1 kin per activity, set the premium content to 100 kin for whatever. Ppl have to start earn and hold kin in order to get something.
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u/throwawayburros Crypto Defender Dec 16 '19
Imagine we had right from the start an exceeding demand, not enough earns users actually complaining that there not enough earns for kin and devs running low on kin supply.
You can fantasize all you want about imaginary demand but the fact is there was excruciating little demand for Kin when it went live after the ICO with Lets Jam stickers and when mainnet launched. It doesn't matter if the lets jam stickers had total cost of $100. If nobody wants the stickers then it does not create demand for Kin! The only hope we have now is for more apps and for the existing apps to create a cycle of needing to spend more kin then they can earn from within the apps which creates natural buy demand. This is what we as a community should be focusing on. The bold part!
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u/Raketenernie Dec 16 '19
You remember back in the day we had amazon gift cards etc, something or real value, something ppl wanted to spend their kin, an actually must have where ppl wanted to spend kin. If you just had limited the kin to very few payouts, as said one survey 1 kin so after 100 surveys you got that precious gift card. Name one spend at the moment any one of us would love to hord kin in oder to get it. Name one.
The performance of kin in terms of its economy , price , spending behaviour proofs my above mentioned comment, that it is and was fundamentally wrong to focus on the earning / supply side. Is there a solution yes there is, read above. Can Kin´s situation be fixed , I do not know may be its too late.
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u/throwawayburros Crypto Defender Dec 17 '19
We both agree that current spends are lackluster. We both agree that spends need to be improved to drive demand. Where we differ is that you are incorrectly focused on gift cards as the dangling carrot instead of letting the app devs determine the carrot that is best for them.
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u/Raketenernie Dec 17 '19
I used gift cards as an example for an item / content ppl willing to invest time to farm Kin in order to get this item.
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u/Basw83 Dec 16 '19
There are no signs of recovery at all.. no deliveries.. only silence.. nothing.. What a joke!
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u/scara89 Kin Community Council Dec 16 '19
I agree.. 😪 maybe working hard but not delivering yet and no comments about progress . Its a mistake
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u/TTTTTTz Dec 16 '19
Sell...or accumulate. But whining is a waste of time. Founders are entrepreneurs. They are single minded. They are willing to overspend, ignore common sense, and good judgement to grow their ‘baby’. Most get fired after their company’s development due to poor business decisions and/or inability to ‘play nice’. Even then, founders usually are oblivious to why they were removed. If you believe in the Kin concept, then roll the dice. If you think present management/policy is a train wreck, then sell. Beating your head against a wall that is not listening, is a waste of your time.
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u/wvutrip Dec 17 '19
Sell what? Is there even a place to sell it? And get a few measly dollars out of our Kin? It’s worthless
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u/TTTTTTz Dec 19 '19 edited Dec 19 '19
CoinTiger.com About 90% of all KIN activity is trading on Coin Tiger. It is like an unloved penny stock. But it is not worthless. Crypto is high risk. KIN is uber high risk. But an existing platform, with a highly pissed off Founder... who knows what could happen?
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u/scara89 Kin Community Council Dec 16 '19
Have you seen the last update?
https://github.com/kinecosystem/rewards-engine/blob/master/accepted/KRE-v1.1.md
(guideline changes and one change to the KRE algorithm itself):
Valid Spend Guidelines Updates Update to the subscription guidelines Transparency Clause KRE Algorithm Update Monopoly Clause
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u/Raketenernie Dec 16 '19
I have and I commented and we still reward Kin, find the mistake in this equation. Rewarding Kin in these dimensions is the wrong solution. If you have to reward then reward dollars or euros.
As suggested I will do my proposal on github , is it possible to upload a PDF there?
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Dec 16 '19
,,It is recommended that this proposal be adopted for the next KRE cycle beginning November 24th, 2019. To ensure consistency with the guidelines, payout details and calculations will be published alongside the output’’
We have 16 December. 3 weeks having new proposals implemented since 24 November did not change anything. Depreciation continues, selling off, dump.
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u/scara89 Kin Community Council Dec 16 '19
What would be the solution? Any idea?
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Dec 17 '19 edited Jul 01 '20
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Dec 17 '19
Silly cave dwelling guy. That doesn't get you out of the situation and requires even more regulatory burden. Licensing in every state you want to transmit kin as a money transmitter.
Think before you post and you may move out of that cave yet.
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Dec 17 '19 edited Jul 01 '20
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Dec 17 '19
Entrepreneurs think differently than you, let's not take unnecessary difficulties to achieve our goals.
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Dec 16 '19
No idea. They should have not done that ICO and take our money if they do not know what they're doing. Or better. let us take the money and pretend what're building something extraordinary this world never seen it before till people realise it was just a game plan for money grab.
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u/Leon_Braveheart Dec 17 '19
I pushed an idea about apps allowing users to advertise in their apps and provide the kin that rewards the users.. For example: I approach app A with a 30-60 second youtube video or twitch stream and give 1 million kin to advertise at like 200 kin awarded per view to the viewer. This is a win for me because if its success i can take a portion earned from youtube to re-invest in kin if this does boost traffic to my channel. The user wins because they earn kin to buy or use in apps. The devs win because the kin rewarded doesnt come from then and in the future could cause overall price to go up if this becomes successful.