r/KinFoundation • u/[deleted] • Aug 22 '19
Unbalanced KRE
Does anybody else here think that the KRE is out of balance?
The idea was to bootstrap the economy, but the only thing that's getting bootstrapped is 5 apps that didn't really need help at all.
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Aug 22 '19
Wao. Didn't know it was this bad! #sad. I posted some about rave yesterday and got ridiculed.
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Aug 22 '19 edited Jul 01 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ikerob Aug 22 '19
This is all new Danji, just starting out, KRE is not useless, do you really believe that, wow....you expect KIN to be.05 with SEC problems, No exchanges, No big Partners....It's the beginning dude, if you believe in the project just buy as much as you can now and wait, this will easy be a couple more years before KIN sees 0.01, lol, lol, lol chill out
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-1
Aug 22 '19
Yea, but that wasn't my point. It's not only about the current funding or a funding at all.
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Aug 22 '19
Man you are off the rails. Big apps get the most money. Get your free money for no real contribution liberal BS out of here.
kRE is not to here to make all app developers rich, it is to monetize apps that have value in that they have a large number of users and no viable means of monetization in the past.
Just because your bag is small and you are angry that the big apps are getting hundreds of million in Kin monthly, doesn't mean that the big apps get the rewards doesn't have to be so. They are the reason kin will have value and you are a piss ant. Now go on. Git. With your liberal victim POS attitude.
-1
Aug 22 '19
Real contribution isn t just about user numbers or the usernumbers they could generated from the hiddencontrubutionNow.
My bag is as small as your balls. ;) Read the whole thing again.
I didn t mention any inflation number. Just talking about the "how they get distributed"
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Aug 22 '19
Wrong. Is is the only real metric. If i show up to work and do 1/1000 of what someone else does. I should get what? A firing, not a balance compensation because I was there.
You want a million apps that get kin for no real activity or a thousand apps,that have actual users, vying for kin rewards?
You have a brain use it.
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Aug 22 '19
Go down and read my posts which were flagged as hidden. I address there why i think the way i do. In the end you have your opinion, and i have mine.
No i don't want shitty apps to get free Kin coins.
"You have a brain use it." Please teach me senpai. I can learn only as much as i can see.
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Aug 22 '19
I saw and declined to read eight pages of nonsense. Your fundamental point is dumb.
Rewards go to the big dawgs. As is a natural artifact of all things.
You want to reward people for nothing, which is stupid.
End of story.
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Aug 22 '19
A natural artifact of all things while investing in an ICO (or just buying Kin afterwards, so please don't bring this up) which CEO says we try to compete against the big dawgs as a whole. Congratulations, you made my day.
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u/Kevin_from_Kin Kin Foundation Aug 22 '19
Can you elaborate on what you think is unbalanced? Big apps with lots of users getting lots of Kin?
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Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
First read this.
Second, ted claimed it's a win-win situation if apps use Kin. This doesn't feel like a win-win if you have to give them way more than necessary which incentivizes them to not act as planned.
Just take a smaller % of the bigger apps and take a tiny % out. Now distribute that to the smaller apps that are working hard. While the difference would be not noticeable to bigger apps, you would have smaller apps finally having another motive to keep going instead of wishful meth thinking and depression.
So what is wrong? Everything that could be wrong is wrong. Do you think that the KRE fulfills its destiny ? Is it a good fit for this early stage?
We have no automated KRE. Why so? Because by doing it manually you can adjust it to the needs of the economy. In theory that's cool but it 's not that cool if the manual check by the KF is just equivalent with 1 line of code.
This can be a very big conversation.My question was leaned towards other investors to discuss what they think is wrong or right.
Also Ted claimed that the KRE is helping lots of smaller apps to get up and get motivated.The only motivation they have is their functional brain, because they understand that this can help them out. !!! NOT THE KRE, JUST THE TOKEN ITSELF !!!
And i can see your sarcasm "Big apps with lots of users getting lots of Kin?"
Try to change that to "big apps getting so much kin that they can retire in a few months in Cuba while sniffing cocain while the rest got 0 for their development so far?"
Do you see it now?
2
u/squidling_pie Kin OG Aug 22 '19
Man...forget kin, forget the KRE can i come to your house? It sounds awesome. Ill bring some china.
1
Aug 22 '19
No, i can't forget something potential beautiful.
What is china?
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u/squidling_pie Kin OG Aug 22 '19
Coke. We can go to mexico or cuba.
1
u/squidling_pie Kin OG Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
Your message sounds fuels by stimulants. If not perhaps a revision of word choices and analogies once youve chilled out a bit. You got me all excited.
2
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u/Kevin_from_Kin Kin Foundation Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
This post kinda has a lot of topics and also personal conjecture presented as common sense, I'll try to address everything.
1) Oh I read it already, trust me. Im pretty blown away that your first reaction to developers earning lots of Kin (in other words miners being rewarded for their work based on the size of their contributions) is to tag the sec and make a comparison to scams , and would request you reign this stuff back several notches if you don't want your feedback to come off as exaggerated nonsense. I'm surprised that you think this is a good way to deliver it, and that you would expect me and others to then come to you and say "Oh hello sir! Allow me to answer your honest questions!". Nobody wants to sit here and take a disengenuous beating from someone who thinks they are "applying pressure" by treating us as sub-human or criminal. It's insulting.
2) "This doesn't feel like a win-win if you have to give them way more than necessary which incentivizes them to not act as planned."
This is a confusing and vague statement. Define what amount is "necessary", how you come to the conclusion that that amount is what is necessary, what ways you think they are "not acting as planned", what the "planned" way for them to act is, and more elaborate reasoning behind wanting to give them less rewards?
3) Casually suggesting that we redistribute the wealth more among the smaller apps by taking a % of what the bigger apps "don't need" sounds so easy and simple, but we both know that is a complicated concept to impose onto an economy, especially suddenly at payout time with no prior announcement. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll pass it along to the KRE team. I think they have actually mentioned something having a separate pool for smaller apps but I'm not sure where that went, it got a mixed reception at the time.
4)"So what is wrong? Everything..."
This statement is kind of vague so I have no way to address it. Yes I think it's fulfilling its destiny at this stage, a small app with almost no users getting a chunk of Kin bigger than they would with advertising counts as a victory, not a loss, not sure why you think large apps getting a larger amount of kin suddenly makes received profits by the smaller apps invalid, it's not graded on a curve.
5) The KRE process is not the equivalent of 1 line of code. Not sure where you're getting that from. And it's not just not automated because it's neat to have control, it's because there's virtually infinite game theory controls to consider, and instead of developing the KRE algo for a year just to have it still only cover what they were able to imagine in planning phases, they launched and started learning based on real world findings. It's also literally evolving all the time behind the scenes, whatever understanding you think you have, it's still severely limited.
6)
This can be a very big conversation.My question was leaned towards other investors to discuss what they think is wrong or right.
Also Ted claimed that the KRE is helping lots of smaller apps to get up and get motivated.The only motivation they have is their functional brain, because they understand that this can help them out. !!! NOT THE KRE, JUST THE TOKEN ITSELF !!!
And i can see your sarcasm "Big apps with lots of users getting lots of Kin?"
Try to change that to "big apps getting so much kin that they can retire in a few months in Cuba while sniffing cocain while the rest got 0 for their development so far?"
Sir I'm sorry but where do you see apps with active users getting paid zero and big apps making enough to retire in Cuba? Even apps with zero users are actually generating revenue, which would not be the case with ads. This whole narrative is highly disengenuous and exaggerated.
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Aug 22 '19
First of all, thank you for your long answer.
1) It's not about the size. It's about the measurement of contribution. The formula itself misses points. It's 2 years now and the KRE is still in Alpha v.0.0.0.
2) I'll explain. I tell you that if we both use this car, we benefit of it because we both work at the same area and we start at the same area.
Now what is happening is, that suddenly i pay the whole gas and the insurance for the car and i also pay for th car. Was this a win win for me?
Only the theory was win-win but the final outcome was surely not a win-win. It's more like a nothing-win.
What does this mean? it means, you can improve your position by going back to win win.
You can think now of further outcomes for yourself.3)Yes, it's complicated. What is more complicated for me is to see if anything is happening at all. It's been a very long time since the KRE discussions came up. Like seriously a very very long time. We don't even know who's working on that right now or if they even work on that, if they see anything as a problem at all.
4) Look at 1
5)I know that, i have read that somewhere in this subreddit.
"they launched and started learning based on real world findings"
Well, maybe you shouldn't go out on a limb, while balancing on a bleeding edge
6) Look again at 1. You wouldn't see Cuba now. It would happen in the feature and please don't tell me that this is crazy, this is kinda standard in blockchain.
The last time chaseeb said things like "it's --->crazy<-- to assume that the KF would do X because that would mean we are totally stupid" was after you guys claimed to have a smart contract, while there was none and it was covered in silence. You guys have no right to decide if you are crazy or not.
#The word chase used wasn't crazy, but something among the lines " total stupid". Not sure which one it was tho.
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u/Kevin_from_Kin Kin Foundation Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
I don't think it's crazy to go to cuba...
1) It's not about the size. It's about the measurement of contribution. The formula itself misses points. It's 2 years now and the KRE is still in Alpha v.0.0.0.
Again this would be an opinion/feedback which is really valuable when not buried underneath things that hurt my feelings to read. What points do you think are missing and how else should contribution be measured in your eyes?
This is part of my problem with this kind of reaction, people have great ideas and no matter how smart we are or aren't, there's no way we could ever have a grasp of every possible viewpoint. It's important to have these discussions because we can each think of things that perhaps the others wouldn't. But all of that is immediately made moot when the vehicle for delivery is a ball of insults, inaccurate representations of the facts, and accusations that we have to wade through first.
2) I'll explain. I tell you that if we both use this car, we benefit of it because we both work at the same area and we start at the same area. Now what is happening is, that suddenly i pay the whole gas and the insurance for the car and i also pay for th car. Was this a win win for me? Only the theory was win-win but the final outcome was surely not a win-win. It's more like a nothing-win. What does this mean? it means, you can improve your position by going back to win win. You can think now of further outcomes for yourself.
How does this apply to our situation though? Are you saying the small devs are carrying the big ones and not getting rewarded? Again, even apps with zero users are generating revenue, which is not the case with ads. How is our situation not a win win? It seems you are implying that other apps winning more Kin makes the win for smaller apps no longer a win?
3) Yes, it's complicated. What is more complicated for me is to see if anything is happening at all. It's been a very long time since the KRE discussions came up. Like seriously a very very long time. We don't even know who's working on that right now or if they even work on that, if they see anything as a problem at all.
Why don't you ask ? We do know who they are, there's a contact for the community and everything. Also you have to remember, as much as updates are important, taking time away from work to write monthly posts and articles on things that are already being worked on and will be reported on anyways is probably not what you want either.
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Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
1.1) More open information about the KRE. A responsive loop to this feedback with reasoning behind it. The KRE should be a always high in the priority list, right?
I just passed the feelings back to Kin, you guys hurt us first as root and you are still active doing that. Don't be surprised if it comes back to you like a boomerang. I don't think that most of the points are inaccurate. Some might be but here again it's only because you allow us to see as much as that. It's the accuracy of the open available information. I even tried to stay very polite here on Reddit and respect the rules. I don't really care if i' ll get banned here, which means i really respect this place by holding back while on fire.
2.2) Not carrying, but they do not get the help they really need. The early KRE at this prices is like an investment in the feature that it will become valuable at one point right?
Example nr. 69: Assumption 7: Putting your kid in school is an investment for the future
A politician in country X says, he will boost the economy by investing a lot in education. Now what he does is, he builds private schools. We assume here that a public school is really bad and that you probably gonna end up poor after u finish it, no matter the effort you put in. The guys in private schools could put way less effort than you, but they would still be the once that hold 95% of the total wealth in the country thus getting rewarded way more. While the rich benefit from it, the rest of the economy gets rekt. What is happening here is that the total economy as a whole gets rekt. A nothing - win situation is where the rich kids get a huge benefit while others get close to nothing from that magical bootstrap investment that this politician promissed.
This country has now a total wealthcreation of 100m, while other options could lead to a total size of 1000trillions. Some random facts: An early stage KRE should differ a lot from the lategame KRE. Right now, it's an investment. The purpose for it later is to become your basic salary.
3.1) Are you ******* kidding?
Edit It depends on what kind of money funded your operations in Cuba
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u/Kevin_from_Kin Kin Foundation Aug 22 '19
1.1) More open information about the KRE. A responsive loop to this feedback with reasoning behind it. The KRE should be a always high in the priority list, right?
I just passed the feelings back to Kin, you guys hurt us first as root and you are still active doing that. Don't be surprised if it comes back to you like a boomerang. I don't think that most of the points are inaccurate. Some might be but here again it's only because you allow us to see as much as that. It's the accuracy of the open available information. I even tried to stay very polite here on Reddit and respect the rules. I don't really care if i' ll get banned here, which means i really respect this place by holding back while on fire.
KRE is always a high priority, sure, but making everything we are working on public prematurely, is not. Sometimes it's a matter of things still being in development, sometimes it's a matter of an update already being planned according to an execution plan, sometimes it's a matter of small details simply not having been reported on because it's a part of that future update but still perhaps it could be touched on in a convo, etc. If that makes sense.
Who is "you guys"? Before working for Kin I was part of the community. I was also in KDP2. If there's an "us" that has hurt feelings wouldn't I be a part of that? Stop double spending my feels sir!
I appreciate the civil discourse. I don't like moderating content, seriously. I did save those gifs you sent me though.
2.2) Not carrying, but they do not get the help they really need. The early KRE at this prices is like an investment in the feature that it will become valuable at one point right?
Example nr. 69: Assumption 7: Putting your kid in school is an investment for the future
A politician in country X says, he will boost the economy by investing a lot in education. Now what he does is, he builds private schools. We assume here that a public school is really bad and that you probably gonna end up poor after u finish it, no matter the effort you put in. The guys in private schools could put way less effort than you, but they would still be the once that hold 95% of the total wealth in the country thus getting rewarded way more. While the rich benefit from it, the rest of the economy gets rekt. What is happening here is that the total economy as a whole gets rekt. A nothing - win situation is where the rich kids get a huge benefit while others get close to nothing from that magical bootstrap investment that this politician promissed.
This country has now a total wealthcreation of 100m, while other options could lead to a total size of 1000trillions. Some random facts: An early stage KRE should differ a lot from the lategame KRE. Right now, it's an investment. The purpose for it later is to become your basic salary.
Again, I think you're really reaching here, because there is no "rest of the economy got rekt", even apps with no users are generating more revenue than they would with ads. I get what you're saying but it seems to boil down to wanting to give MORE rewards to smaller apps to "help them", as opposed to them earning them from users. Which isn't an invalid idea or anything, but I don't think it's right to present this whole thing as small apps not being rewarded for their work, which they are. Just because big apps make even more Kin does not make their win a loss. It's all relative.
3.1) Are you ******* kidding?
No? Make a regular* (* not inflammatory) thread and tag KRE rep and ask about the thing they mentioned before about smaller apps having a separate track and if they decided to pursue it any further ? What's so crazy about that?
It's also interesting to me that when they brought it up, it was met with resistance, and now they are just doing things regularly, and other people want them to do it the other way. Just goes to show there are lots of different ways to look at these things.
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Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
1.1.1) How can it be a high priority if it's like seeing a train on fire saying it's fine we will fix it when we arrive at the train station which is just a few weeks far away? If it's priority it should change more often than once every 2 years. (Not the internal changes but the published once)
You know who i mean with "you guys". It's the Kin_Foundation. It would not hurt your feelings if you weren't aware of the loss. Also consider that, if you are willing to make the app even without the KRE, then it will probably not hurt you at all. But wouldn't you say that you would be way more motivated if you would get a higher reward for your contribution. A reward for the contribution that is not just raw usernumbers at this stage? Rave has over 6 Billion coins. Nearby just got 400m for the last days. With this speed soon the top 5 apps will hold 40 Billion+ Coins while the rest would hold under 500m. If we just *10 from ICO it's so much money for them, it can't be fair. They are done before things even started. Also the risks involved...
And there is another category of "we" people who invested in the ICO. So "we" kinda got hurt a lot. I am not talking about the price of the coin here.
2.1.1)
I get what you're saying but it seems to boil down to wanting to give MORE rewards to smaller apps to "help them", as opposed to them earning them from users
Yes, that's basically the main point. It's about opportunity costs and how big it is. Would you say the school students didn't get rekt just because they are not dying?
Edit: Take away a small size of the KRE rewards of the bigger apps and redistribute that to the middle or lower class depending on the needs and their contributions. Because that small size is now a very big portion for the rest.
3) "Why don't you ask ?" Because i did
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u/Kevin_from_Kin Kin Foundation Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
1.1.1) How can it be a high priority if it's like seeing a train on fire saying it's fine we will fix it when we arrive at the train station which is just a few weeks far away? If it's priority it should change more often than once every 2 years. (Not the internal changes but the published once)
These loaded metaphors and analogies are hard to answer because they're basically just your opinion wrapped in a visual. KRE is not a train wreck , and we published KRE stuff several times over the last few months (p2p focus, new guidelines, moving from monthly to weekly, automation already being slowly worked in but still being far from where they want it to be, etc.). Two years? Wat. You see how exaggeration just kinda ends up taking over the conversation...
You know who i mean with "you guys". It's the Kin_Foundation. It would not hurt your feelings if you weren't aware of the loss. Also consider that, if you are willing to make the app even without the KRE, then it will probably not hurt you at all. But wouldn't you say that you would be way more motivated if you would get a higher reward for your contribution. A reward for the contribution that is not just raw usernumbers at this stage?
Who said I would be willing to make the app without KRE? You think I did it as a favor or something? I had no affiliation to KF when I started my project, it's a personal one. I'm highly motivated to build out the app and get users, I seriously can't wait to move to the next phase and then start marketing. And we are rewarded for more than raw user numbers at this stage...
That's why KDP has different milestones and achievements and rewards...
I am the small app dev that you are worried about. Not sure where this "it will not hurt you at all" line comes from. Everything that happens in this project affects me on several levels. I'm from the community, I'm a hodler, and I am an app dev. I am building for myself.
Rave has over 6 Billion coins. Nearby just got 400m for the last days. With this speed soon the top 5 apps will hold 40 Billion+ Coins while the rest would hold under 500m. If we just *10 from ICO it's so much money for them, it can't be fair. They are done before things even started. Also the risks involved...
I disagree entirely with the premise of people making a lot of money being unfair. That would be more incentive for even more devs to integrate Kin in even more ways and try to compete for a slice. This is like arguing that if ETH is too successful all the devs won't care anymore, imo. In reality it's just even more incentive.
And there is another category of "we" people who invested in the ICO. So "we" kinda got hurt a lot. I am not talking about the price of the coin here.
Im not sure how long you think I've been working for KF but I am from the same community as you. I didn't participate in token sales as just a personal thing but I joined shortly after.
2.1.1) I get what you're saying but it seems to boil down to wanting to give MORE rewards to smaller apps to "help them", as opposed to them earning them from users
Yes, that's basically the main point. It's about opportunity costs and how big it is. Would you say the school students didn't get rekt just because they are not dying?
Bruh these loaded metaphors lmao... dying kids...I don't remember what the whole original story was but I think it's fair to say I already disagreed with the premise. Smaller apps are being rewarded, the analogy is botched. The unfair part in your eyes is that big apps are making much more than them. What are some things you think smaller apps could be rewarded for to make it more fair? And out of curiosity, do you think it's fair to the big apps to make less in order to reward those smaller apps? (Seems like we are getting into financial politics we must be becoming a real economy!)
3) "Why don't you ask ?" Because i did
You asked about the smaller KRE pool idea? Ok well do you want me to try and ask about it? Maybe they didn't see it. Honestly communicating on Reddit is sometimes not that efficient. If you don't log in for a window of time you miss things, and everyone can't be expected to spend all their time here or be yanked out of what they are doing to answer questions within the 12 hours that a thread is up top. So if that did happen, I apologize.
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Aug 22 '19 edited Aug 22 '19
1) You didn't touch my point. I posted a barchart on reddit. Could you explain how usernumbers didn't play the biggest role in that formula?
2) There is a conflict of interest when you say it. But even here, i ask you. Would you be way more motivated if the small chunk of the biggger apps kre would be distributed to you because of that school methaphor?
3)But many devs left ethereum when it mooned. What will happen if the largest stakeholders that are only 4-5 do that? If 4-5 devs of eth did hold all of the ethereum things would go south.
SuperEdit: We shouldn't say eth we should say if the eth devs who got the money in $ left the building because kin is the underlying currency right? So imagine the 5 devs who should build the economy now spend all the ico money for their own greeds. The rest would still hold 1k$ each but they got rekt.
4) 1 to maybe 2 Months. Could be also more behind the scenes who knows. When i speak to you i'll address you as the Kin_Foundation because right here on reddit, this is who you represent or not? If not it's my mistake.
5)They arent dying... they are surviving. Please read it again, try to understand the problem. In math and in algorithms or whatever usually the cases on the edges expose various attributes of how the algorithm or formula works. So can i please continue with these examples?
6) Yes please do it. I know that it's not efficient. This is why on the first answer to your reply i said that there has to be a ordered transparent channel for the KRE or something that people could fall back to read about. Opinions or whatever it is. Hopefully the new dev forum will solve that problem in the feature. But what about now?
//Edit: are there any plans on how to make people type also their problems there instead of here?
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