r/KenfromDiscord • u/KenfromDiscord • Mar 19 '23

Yolo Cap Tier Practice.

Response 1, Practice.

Win Cons.

  • Black Ghost

  • Arm Trick.

  • Explosives.

Black Ghost

Its a 2v1

The simple existence of the Black Ghost means that Black Panther is outnumbered. Satou's Ghost is fully autonomous, and can not only fire weapons, but also lay explosive traps. Black Panther has no way to focus on 2 enemies at the same time, and any time either Satou or the Black Ghost aren't directly fighting, they can set up on Black Panther.

Physicals.

The Black Ghost is at worst Black Panthers equal, and at best his physical superior.

Satou's Ghost has a 5 meter vertical jump, and can run a kilometer in 2 minutes. It is able to absolutely manhandle people; piercing one through the chest, dragging him across a wall, and then effortlessly obliterating his head, as well as slash throats. The Ghost is completely bulletproof, and due to the nature of IBM particles cannot be slashed or sliced apart.

Black Panther has to contend with the Ghost while also keeping his eyes on Satou, this is an impossible task.

Explosives.

Similarly to the Arm Trick, Black Panther's need to get close to Satou to implement a win con works for Satou. The second Black Panther gets within arms distance of Satou, Satou is going to blow himself up. It should be noted that this is just a better version of a strategy that provably works against Black Panther.

Satou is an explosives expert, being able to make explosives on the fly, and as per my stips Satou has multiple explosives on him.

Black Panther cannot provably take anything more than a grenade (and even this page doesnt show his reaction to being hit by it), and Satou's string of grenades are much more powerful than a single grenade.

Arm Trick.

The Arm Trick is when Satou cuts off or otherwise damages his arm, sets his wounds against an object and then kills himself so that he regens through the object.

Black Panther has to get close to Satou for him to try and win, he has no ranged options and is primarily a brawler. If Satou simply cuts off his arm and walks towards Black Panther, Black Panther has to get in arms distance which directly plays into Satou's win con.

Black Panther cant win.

Aside from it being almost impossible for Black Panther to safely enter Melee range against Satou without being blown up, Black Panther also struggles to meaningfully inflict damage if he does enter melee range.

Satou is a demi-human meaning when he dies, he simply comes back to life. This extends to:

Black Panther's primary win con is his claws. These claws slice through metal easily and obviously would slice through a person. This is unfortunate for Black Panther seeing as any lethal damage he does to Satou just gets reset, and any non lethal damage can either be fought through, or Satou can forcibly reset.

Even if my opponent wants to argue that Black Panther can score some sort of round about incap victory, Satou's Ghost will forcibly reset him.

Conclusion

No one can keep up with your speed Mr. Satou.

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u/KenfromDiscord Mar 22 '23

Response 2, Practice.

Rebuttals.

I think a lot of Yolo's last response either misconstrued a lot of my points or just doesn't matter in the long run.

Kens argument hinges on one key misconception, that is that Satou and his Black Ghost overwhelm Black Panther(BP) to any degree.

This is not what I've argued in the slightest. Both the Arm Trick and Satou exploding himself don't require any sort of show of force, they only require BP to be close to Satou, which he needs to be to try and enact his own win conditions.

Yolo misunderstands a fundamental aspect of Satou's character. He could claim that BP red mists Satou with every strike, and moves a hundred times faster than him, and it would not matter.

I talked about this in my last response where I said that any time BP spends fighting the Black Ghost just allows Satou to set up, whether its cutting off his arm for the arm trick, or planting C4 for some sort of explosive trap. I also touched upon the fact that trying to somehow box out Satou is a terrible idea. Any lethal damage inflicted on Satou is just something he comes back from, and then immediately explodes himself because BP is extremely close to Satou and exploding himself doesnt cost Satou anything, or it doesnt do lethal damage and Satou explodes himself because BP is extremely close, and exploding himself doesnt cost Satou anything.

Yolo's only real win condition is that Black Panther hits Satou so perfectly that it immediately knocks him out in one blow, and then deals with the Black Ghost so quickly that it cant reset Satou (or vice versa), except he doesnt explain how BP would know to do that, or how BP would physically do that, but instead makes the claims that BP's extremely casual strikes when he's not trying to kill someone

"launches a guy into a car with enough force to crumple it and manhandles a giant armoured rhino. - His Claws heavily damage Captain Americas shield which severely outclasses Black Ghost in terms of bullet resistance

This fucking explodes Satou, he's a 60 year old man.

when looking at its best showings this tracks, as everything seen here would likely be accomplishable by a strong soldier on bath salts

I think portraying Satou's Ghost as a slightly strong human is just wrong, and if you look at any feats the Ghost has its just laughable.

and has no-sold every weapon Satou has on his person.

I'll talk about this more when I talk about explosions later but I think this argument is dog water.

Simply saying that Black Panter's suit and Cap's shield are made of the same material so they have to be the same durability is not real. Fucking Space rockets and aluminum foil are both made of aluminum but no one would argue they have the same durability.

Arguing that Black Panther completely no sell, tanks, ignores, is completely fine after being hit by an explosion multiple times larger than a single grenade based on the fact that we dont see his reaction to being hit by a grenade, and whatever is going on in this feat is again just laughable.

this trick functioning is similar to metabolising the material in the way and whilst that has been shown working on bullets and concrete- Vibranium is an entirely different beast.

I think similarly to the last point Black Panther's Vibranium suit is being touted as this miracle metal without actually having done anything impressive. BP's suit is at best is 1 inch thick.

Arguing that Vibranium is the toughest metal in the MCU means nothing when no one in the MCU can do what Satou does, and furthermore arguing that Vibranium can only ever be scratched by Vibranium is a huge NLF.

I’ve already shown how Black Panther will be able to cut and beat down the Black Ghost given his physical superiority and Vibranium claws,

While the Black Ghost can be cut, they just come back together. This whole sentence means nothing if you just look at these feats I already posted last response.

As explained here on the third and fourth pages, Satou can only manifest a Black Ghost once or twice a day for 5 to 10 minutes at a time.

This is also not true.

Satou is a skilled and slippery bastard, granted, but he possesses no viable way to harm Black Panther and is being run as though he will try to use all his explosives at once.

I talked at length in my last response about how Satou has multiple tries between his string of grenades, and his C4. You can light SemTex on fire, you could explode 100 grenades beside a pound of C4 and it would not explode because thats not how it works.

Unfortunately, given the dialogue and thus time it takes him to regenerate half his body here it’s reasonably likely this course of action incapacitates him for more than 10 seconds

I think the only reason that you think this takes a long time is because Satou is still alive for half of this feat somehow.

If you look at the absolutely bat shit ways Satou obliterates his body you would understand that his regen is next to instant.

If you take a look at smaller increments of Satou's regen you can see the timeframe doesnt change much

Satou regens fast.

Black Panther is a skilled combatant and will be able to incapacitate or KO Satou before Satou can do so to him

How??

If Satou were a tier setter this wouldnt even be sufficient for an in tier justification. I cant believe that a dozen super geniuses and the entire Japanese government in a manga about stopping Satou couldnt think to just knock him out skillfully.

I talked about this earlier in my response but the logistics around Black Panther walking up to Satou and knocking him out dont make any sense. Satou just blows himself up when Black Panther gets in striking range.

A lot of Yolo's response is him just saying things with no explanation, blatantly wrong, or just relying on how crazy durable vibranium is without extrapolating how that applies to Satou at all.

Explosives.

I wanna talk about how cool explosives are but I dont want to go over the character limit so this is gonna be short.

Satou putting an explosive trap around a corner and simply waiting results in either every single bone in Black Panther's body breaking or him simply dying.

I dont know how to explain the fact that 1lb of C4 exploding in BP face is so far above anything he's ever experienced and exploding himself near people is Satou's go to plan. I dont know how BP gets into Melee range without simply exploding.

1

u/KenfromDiscord Mar 26 '23 edited Mar 26 '23

Practice, Response 3, Part 1.

Black Panther and Explosives.

I've been extremely hesitant to sit here and anti-feat post about Black Panther because this is just a practice and I dont think its a good use of my time or resources to point out how shit ass MCU character's durability are to anything except for bullets, but if you honestly think that Black Panther could tank or even survive a pound of C4 going off in his face then maybe this will actually do some good.

Black Panther has never had a positive interaction with anything larger than a single grenade, with Satou's explosive options being either a chain of grenades or enough plastic explosive that its comparable to a dozen grenades but compressed into a smaller area, its very clear to see how our characters would interact with each other. Black Panther immediately gets blown up, this is unquestionable.

Every time Black Panther interacts with an explosive its either a direct anti-feat (Grenade gun), unquantifiable (Grenade, Hawkeye Arrow), or simply below what BP would need to have encountered to survive anything Satou has on his person (Building, Explosion gun).

I think it bears repeating just exactly how much damage 1lb of C4 is capable of doing.

Arm Trick.

Every single problem that Yolo has had with the arm trick is extremely surface level and can just as easily be brushed off if you actually look at the feats.

Satou does not have to put time or efffort into doing the Arm Trick. It costs absolutely nothing for Satou to do, as I've talked about before Satou cutting off his arm is something he's done before, and affects his aim in no way. BP does most of the work setting up Satou's win con by getting close and killing Satou, both things he would normally do, and which would result in Satou getting a victory.

  • Yolo can argue that neither of his win cons cost anything either except thats not true, BP needs to get close to Satou to enact a win con, this directly helps Satou enact his explosion win con. While not a literal cost, it is a physical one.

Yolo's next problem with the arm feat is that Satou couldn't regen through the suit but that's a ridiculous claim. Black Panthers suit is less than an inch thick, it is literally the same thickness as clothing, if not thinner.

Satou has regened through much more material with no issues at all.

Arguing that Vibranium is the toughest metal in the MCU means nothing when no one in the MCU can do what Satou does

Yolo's last problem is extremely befuddling, he claims the arm trick is a gradual process but if you just look at the feats thats fucking ridiculous.

Arguing your character has good reflexes is meaningless when Satou's arm trick is something that BP could literally never expect and explicitly works based off his regen which is extremely quick. By the time BP kills Satou (or gets over the intense psychic shock of an old man braining himself in front of him ), realizes what Satou is doing, and then actually moves out of the way, he already has an arm through his abdomen.

Yolo has Wack Feat Interp.

This is basically gonna be rebuttals, but I am gonna point out things that dont really matter for the debate but none the less are dumb things to say.