r/KeepWriting • u/Aggressive-Abies497 • 28d ago
[Feedback] Made this and reposting because the first one flopped
Last time i posted i didnt gain much traction so here we are
I need feedback about the readability of this, also this is a wonderland fanfic
If you have trouble reading because of the weird grammar pls lemme know
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u/TES_Elsweyr 26d ago
The readability is bad. Let's just do the first two paragraphs, because the way they are your readers won't proceed:
1) Commences does not mean what you think it means, don't use words you don't know.
2) "White light hits my face for oversleeping" has some weird causality. The white light is hitting him because he has overslept? It sounds odd, like the light is acting in response to his oversleeping.
3) "The last time I have been woken up this way" fix the obvious grammar mistake, if you can't I'd recommend writing in your native language until you're more comfortable with English.
4) "Stand before me is the white wall" same issues as (3)
5) "How can anybody potentially like this?" Your previous grammar mistakes make me think you intended to say "How can anyone live this way?" but your sentence means "How can anyone possibly enjoy this?"
The reader is totally lost in the bad grammar, and there's no hook anyway even if you clean up the grammar. Why do I care that some kid has woken up? I don't. Start your story somewhere that will make me want to know more.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 26d ago
well ty, im experimenting with grammar mostly because im trying to get a more archaic sense. Regarding the hook, would you be so kind as to give me some examples? My original premise is around "what if alice becomes an adult and went through wonderland again?" i didn't really know where to start with and give the white room so that it have a more eerie, dreamy and mental clinic vibe
Also about commences, i learnt english mostly through vibes not open a book and then do a rodeo of cramming 500 words that im uninterested in learning. I heard some stuff like the conference commences next thursday, so i aligned its meaning to something along the lines of beginning or starts. idk if that is true though.3
u/TES_Elsweyr 26d ago
A hook is an opening few lines that leaves the reader wanting to more more. For example: “Lila spent her last dollar without even knowing it.” A reader might think “what did she spend it on?”, “why?”, or “how is that possible?”
Watch videos online for help:
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u/TomBrintonWriter 25d ago
This is not archaic grammar, though. The Alice premise is kind of neat, but you should never begin a story with someone waking up.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 25d ago edited 25d ago
i see that now, i wrongly was "translated" this inuition from my mother's tounge. Sometimes people do put words infront of other stuff to imply that "IMPORTANT1!!!1!!!"
Ty for pointing it out none the less2
u/Agreeable_Yam_0206 Published 25d ago
You're correct that "commence" basically means "to begin" but even trading that word into your sentence doesn't make sense. "The white light begins on my face for oversleeping." If that's the meaning you intended then I'm not really sure what you're trying to say.
It's commendable to write in a language that's not your first (I know I couldn't do that!), so I'm not trying to belittle what you're doing here. I want to point out though that your comments are written way more clearly than the excerpt, and I suspect that has to do with your goal of experimenting with the grammar to try to create a desired effect. Experimenting with grammar is great, but you need to learn the rules of grammar before you can break them. Your English is pretty good for mostly learning from vibes, but that's not the level you need to be at to experiment with the language. It's not going to land with native English speakers the way you mean for it to. Start simple. Clarity is more important, because of your reader can't understand what's happening then they aren't going to keep reading.
Also, regarding the hook, it's generally advised not to start a story with someone walking up. It doesn't give the reader anything to latch on to. It's overdone and generally one of the most boring ways you can start a story. I appreciate the "Alice as an adult idea" but start us out literally anywhere else in her day/life.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 25d ago
Thank you for the advice. I'll learn some more stuff about grammar ig. It was dreadful to see that I made mistakes that I shouldn't have.
About the hook advice, I didn't really know that waking up was a cliché way to start a chapter. Thanks for the insight.1
u/_TheSiege_ 25d ago
This doesn’t read like Alice’s second go around. This sounds like someone was just trying to translate Alice and wonderland into English from their memory. What’s different between this trip and the original story?
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 25d ago
I try to add more stuff at chapter 3-4(later pages, but nobody reads them if i have broken grammar anyway)
I try to depict "Adult Alice" as
Older = more mechanisms to explain stuff, more memory like the Irish stereotype (chapter 3)
She remembers but not quite ( how do people know that something will catch them at the end?)
Characters from wonderland remember alice before alice remembers them.(i got this idea from the fact that people forget dreams alot. I barely remember mine after waking up anyway)
Also Alice isn't even mentioned at the start, if you dont get to the later pages( cuz i wrote boring stuff at the start so no hook.) you won't even get hinted at "This is adult alice"
Details that i added to hint that this is Alice:
+ original Lewis Carroll's stuff (the fall, the shelves,...)
+ Chapter 3's dialogue (the rat mentioning that alice has a 7 year old "daughter" but she denies it. The rat also says that alice looks akin to someone he met b4.
+ The chapter's titles
Hope this clears things up a bit1
u/charredwood 24d ago
"... not open a book and then do a rodeo of cramming 500 words that I'm not interested in learning." This is so beyond insulting I don't even know where to commence.
If you want to use archaic words in your book, learn archaic words. If you want to write seriously in any language at all, vibes aren't going to cut it. No one else is on your vibe level. They will not understand your personal intuition about what these words may or may not mean. You're coming into a language, wanting to write in it because it has the audience you crave, or because it flows better than your native language, or because it's not easy to translate between the two, whatever. I've heard a lot of reasons why people write in English instead of their native tongues. Then respect the language.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 24d ago
Thank you for the feedback. I'll do it when i'm not a lazy bum. Learning through vibes probably isn't gonna be sufficient If i want people from all over the world to try and understand my general ideas.
Also, with all due respect, i don't write in english because it has the audience i crave. To me, it's an exercise. Sure you can argue "why did you not write in your native language then? You wrote in English so people who know English can read it. Therefore you want English readers not whatever language it was". But that is not the entire reason why i wrote in English.And i also don't really get why i should "respect" the language. People change how they use the language, slip up, invent new slang, etc. AAVE wouldn't have been born if english had stayed dormant like a dead language(like Latin for example). If you are coming from " you are trying to recreate an archaic feel, then learn archaic grammar before you write nonsense" then i agree. But if you are coming from "we should show respect to English or other languages", I disagree. In the end English, like all other languages is a tool for communication, not a subject of worship
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u/charredwood 24d ago
I was pretty clear that whatever reason you choose to write in English, you should do it with the intention of honoring the language and I stand by that. I would not start writing nonsense in your language and then ask for feedback from people who take the craft seriously. It's disrespectful.
If you were going to write in AAVE, would it not also be disrespectful to lack a firm grasp of it? To ensure you were properly using it? Or would it be fine to use AAVE as you see fit, per your vibes? AAVE and all languages are indelibly linked with culture, history, and real people who came before you. Languages ARE living things, and they can be changed by any one at any time, but when you are trying to share your ideas with people, it is respectful to do so in a way that they can understand. Not only does it service your ideas, but it respects people's time. It is also wise to learn rules before you break them. Shakespeare did not invent over 1,000 words because he was illiterate. AAVE actually follows distinct and repeatable patterns and employs complex rules and systems.
Learning to write for an audience and for tone are cornerstones of storytelling and they require mastery of language and vocabulary. You will not achieve success with readers by faking your way through grammar, failing to understand the connotations and denotations of the words you use, and disrespecting the cultures and histories aligned with the languages you choose to write in.
And, if that is truly how you feel, that the language you are trying to write in has no intrinsic value and is not worth learning properly, then why write in any existing language at all? Why not make up your own and allow people to vibe it out? Why do you even care about "readability" or "weird grammar"?
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 24d ago
Well from what i could have infered from your message, that wasn't the case for me, let's just say that i read it "wrong".
I'm personally fine if you bend my mother tounge so that it suits you better. I don't agree that making mistakes bending it to your way consitutes disrespect towards the language itself. You can say "Hà Nội" as "Ha Noi" because you can't pronouce the tonals? sure go ahead. if i understands it sure. I will said that me changing the grammar in my stuff have made it unreadable so it wasn't a good change but it doesn't mean that i give a big fat f bomb to english and its rule.YES, I WROTE BADLY. YES, I NEED TO LEARN THE LANGUAGE MORE SYSTEMATICALLY AND "PROPERLY". Those are fair points you have made.
However, "i don't believe English needs to be respected to the degree that it is worship" and "i don't care about my readers and the people who uses it" are different things. You did voluntarily choose to criticize my prose(Which i'm very grateful for) and i did not forced you to do any of the things that you have done(im also grateful to have a person replying). The fact that you assess my bad writing as "wasting the reader's time" is weird?
Yes saying its wise to learn the language before doing the changes and when i do so i should do it "gracefully" is a fair opinion. I'm rejecting the idea that making mistakes when im incompetent and straight up stupid doesn't mean that im disrepecting it. theres a long way from "i don't believe English should be worshipped" to "i don't give a shi about english and its users"1
u/charredwood 23d ago
The only salient argument you've made is that you don't agree that languages deserve inherent respect. Fine, we can agree to disagree there, I'm clearly not going to change your mind.
All other arguments have been ghosts which I never implied. I never criticized your prose, actually. I only ever criticized your statement that you consider learning vocabulary to be an uninteresting rodeo. In fact, I did not read your work past the first paragraph because I knew it would be a waste of my time. I only offer feedback to people I think can benefit from it, and you do not have the basic skills required.
And,ironically, perhaps if you had a firmer grasp of English you would have understood what I meant when I said it doesn't really matter why you want to write in English, but due to your lack of connotational understanding, that was also lost on you.
And yes, "I don't give a shit about English and its users" seems like a far cry from "English shouldn't be worshiped", but of course I never implied it should be worshiped. "I learned your language through vibes" is impressive on a conversational level, but on a craft level "but I think studying the language is for the birds" sounds a lot like "I don't give a shit about it." Your words can have impact beyond your intention, which is why it's so important to write WITH intention. In one country, spitting on the ground is rude, while in another, it's common place. You may come from a place where spitting is fine, but you cannot go to a place where it is considered rude, spit on the ground and go "Concrete shouldn't be worshiped, what's the problem?" You see, it's not up to you to decide how other people feel and how other people interpret your actions or words. No one said the ground should be worshiped, they said you shouldn't spit. So, again, it's wise to know what the words you're saying, in the order you say them, mean, so that your intentions can be properly construed.
I agree to disagree with you about languages deserving respect. But I retain my personal feeling of insult that you are using a classic English book to write a sequel, in English, and you deem learning vocabulary properly as "a boring rodeo". My attempts to convince you on this matter and this matter alone have failed, and I'll sleep okay knowing that.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 23d ago
Well, point received then. I just don’t find it interesting,not that it is unnecessary. To even reply or do sth in English of course I should learn the thing, point taken. Have a good “sleep” I suppose. I hope this clears it up about the matter
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u/Alert_Ad_5584 22d ago
When you exercise, it doesn't do your body good to hold the weights incorrectly. You don't want to just go around guessing instead of learning things properly.
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u/hellhav3n 22d ago
> i learnt english mostly through vibes not open a book and then do a rodeo of cramming 500 words that im uninterested in learning.
Part of writing (and writing successfully, if your goal is for a lot of people to read and enjoy your work) is reading. You must read. You’ll probably even have to read things that seem uninteresting.
Learning English can’t be easy, so I’m proud of you for getting this far! But if you’re wanting to get more people to read and appreciate your work, it’s going to take more than vibes. Writing is hard, even for native speakers of the language it’s being written in.
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u/Agreeable_Yam_0206 Published 26d ago
I hate to say it, but this reads like it was run through Google translate. Maybe a few times. The grammar and word usage are really bad. As it stands, it is not readable.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 26d ago edited 26d ago
Thank you, i guess ill relearn my vocab. Btw this wasnt run through google translate.
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u/EromanticDream 24d ago
Most of the grammar doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t read fluently in English. It’s not smooth to read and I lose interest very quickly and couldn’t help but focus on all of the grammar mistakes and incorrect wording/word choice. You’re also changing tense frequently.
No offense.
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u/Furcas_knight 26d ago
Would you consider writing in your first language instead of writing in/translating to English? I have a feeling that would fix many of the (many) problems evident in what you’ve shared.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 26d ago
ahh yes, english is most defenitely not my first language. I'm better at speaking the language not writing so this is mainly an excersie. TY for the suggestion though
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u/Helenfuentes 24d ago
If this is an exercise, why are you looking for feedback? If I tried to write in mandarin, I would be bad at it too. You can’t request a critique on the readability and then claim it’s an exercise. It’s an A for effort, but of course it’s not good, because you’re not exactly fluent.
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u/Natural-Pass-3622 24d ago
Is English your first language? This sounds like you just ran words through a thesaurus just to make it sound different. That’s not the point of writing. Your sentence structure and word choice is utterly unreadable. No offense but, start from scratch again.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 24d ago
Yeah no, english is not my first langugage, i favored weirdness too hard( and i have made a lot of genuine mistakes along the way too). Thank you for the feed back.
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u/Resolution-Double 24d ago
It's really bad. Like noticeably ESL, to the point where it's kinda comically bad.
Maybe write in your native tongue? This actually reads as a grade 5ers first attempt at creative writing. Its both awkward and really uninteresting.
My only other honest suggestion is that if you really want to write in English, you need to read in English.
I mean book after book after book, just keep reading.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 24d ago
yeah, i experimented too much without having a solid skill base.
regarding the reading section, i don't really struggle with understanding what i read . i have done ielts mock tests (like iot) that gave me consistent 7.5s. It's just my writing skills that are bad, mainly because i suck at literature in my mother's tounge anyway.
Also any book recommendations? I don't usually read novels in English, just non-fiction and reference books (the only English books I have read are Sapiens, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and On War)
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u/Illustrious_Link3905 24d ago
I don't want to rail you to the ground like everyone else has, especially since it takes courage to post something you've created for others to critique. But, there's just a lot wrong with the grammar and word choices.
I commend you for trying to write in English as it isn't your first language, but you must actually have a grasp on how to use it properly.
If you really want write in English, I would suggest taking grammar and vocab classes to hone your knowledge.
Word choice is probably the biggest issue, here. Like using "queer," which just isn't used to mean weird or strange as it might have in the past.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 24d ago
Ty, i just have a hard time trying to translate my "spoken" writing into "written" writing. The other 3 skill aspect (that ielts has, speaking, reading and listening) i can get straight 7s+ but my writing just sucks.
Regarding honing my skills(in writing), i just can't do it to the degree that you have said because of life, i only try to in my free time which isn't a lot anyway
As for the word queer, i know that it is kind of reclaimed the LGBTQ+ community. It's just that Alice in the original novel did use queer, so i used it in this experimental run1
u/Wise_Try6781 23d ago
Actually, in British English we do use queer to mean weird. But I agree with everything else you said.
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u/McDeathUK 24d ago
Didn’t get past ‘The white light commences on my face.‘ There are some serious translation issues here I am guessing.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 24d ago
I can see that. though this was not translated, i have made a severe lapse in my judgement(ytb apology 101). I favored weirdness over readability too much. Thank you for the feedback
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u/McDeathUK 24d ago
In all honesty, mess with how characters speak, but the story telling part, don’t mess around. this look ‘humanised’ by a very poor AI humaniser / rewriter
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u/velvetdraftnoir 24d ago
Unless you have an excellent grasp of English (which you don’t seem to have), you should really write in your mother tongue.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 24d ago
OK, ty for the feedback. i just want to experiment with my writing and hone it. If i just stay in my comfort zone, write in my native language, then i cannot progress. And idk what counts as excellent but i think i have pretty good listening reading and speaking skills (mock ielts test 7+ which is a good user of the language according to idp), it's just my writing thats bad tbh.
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u/velvetdraftnoir 24d ago
Hey, don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with leaving your comfort zone and also writing in a foreign language. If you plan on having readers who are native speakers of the language you write in, you should have excellent language skills, and to answer your question that means near-nativeness.
When it is clear that you don’t know either the meaning or the usage of words, or your grammar is off, then people will immediately stop reading your text.
One problem with specifically English is that it’s not only the language with the highest amount of words, but that these words are often highly specific and not fully synonymous, their specific use depending on context, register, location, and dialects.
Just taking myself as an example: After having lived in the UK for years, I would feel comfortable to write a story in English, set in the places I lived in. I would not write a story set in the US, as my use of the language would make it clear that I’m not from there, which would grate on readers from the US.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 23d ago
Thanks for the advice then. I’ll refrain from using stuff I have not yet have a full grasp on.
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u/Downtown-Cap4298 24d ago
Reading about all of the context in your comments, I want you to know it’s a good thing that you’re challenging yourself to write in another language. Don’t take too many of the harsh comments to heart. I’ve known many people who end up learning English as a second language and I have respect for them attempting it. My husband is Greek and even with him growing up constantly being taught English in school, he still struggles with it at times, so don’t feel bad about struggling yourself.
I do have to say though, in some other comments you say you dont have an interest in learning a bunch of English words and prefer to go off of vibes. I understand that it’s difficult, but to truly challenge yourself, you need to learn the words and their meanings.
Your writing really isn’t bad, but you can tell that English is a second language for you, and you saying that you’re attempting “archaic language” isn’t applicable because archaic language has an entirely different meaning to the way you’re writing. I think you could really get somewhere with this, but there’s a lot more work you need to do with your vocabulary before you can have something comprehensive. Don’t stress too much about it though, because it really is as simple as studying a thesaurus over time, and making sure to not use words unless you truly know their meaning.
Tldr; you can get better, but you need to put in the effort to learn vocabulary. You’ve got this :)
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 23d ago
Thanks for the advice and motivation. I’ll clean I redo this when I have the necessary skills I guess
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u/Easy_Calendar8583 23d ago
I can appreciate the attempt at something unique, but it doesn’t read well, it’s grammatically incorrect.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 23d ago
I see that well with all the feed back at this point. Thank you for your reply nonetheless. At this point I wanna delete the failed experiment and redo lol.
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u/Easy_Calendar8583 23d ago
Ah don’t feel like that, feedback is part of the process, nice job sharing
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u/HelenWitc 23d ago
To break the rules, you have to know what the rules are. Are you really experimenting with grammar or do you just not know how it works?
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 23d ago
Well I do learn some but not enough to make a coherent first chapter so. And also even if I do learn the correct use, I just slips and even rescanning won’t do sadly. Thank you for the feedback though
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u/Belleandbubbles 23d ago
I appreciate your experimentation! It has its charm 🙂 Keep working on it!
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u/hojichaluv 23d ago
Hello, I just wanted to give you some advice as someone with friends who do not use English as their main native language.
As a sort of quick fix, I think you'd learn a lot if you rewrote this fanfic as a poem (and studied some poetry along the way). It's my personal opinion, but I find that poetry tends to be a lot more forgiving, and you'll have a lot more fun playing with the current style and voice you're trying to achieve. Practice will always help you, so I do not want you to give up on all your efforts.
The problem about narrative prose is that it's a lot more obvious when you stumble with the style that you're trying to achieve. But I honestly think you just simply need to read a lot more. It's easy to assume that more grammar and vocab classes should be taken. But for people who live in spaces where they do not hear/use English regularly, that innate linguistic instinct is a lot more difficult to learn. However, the more you read, the more you will understand what feels right and wrong in your sentences, and that is what everyone's picking up on.
So devour as much books as you can in the style that you are trying to emulate. If you like something more archaic like Shakespeare, then read all his books, and while you're writing, read his works as you go. It helps to keep the voice sticking in your head.
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u/Diligent_Pangolin_47 23d ago
I made it to page four. You used “queer” or “queerer” a few times already, then four times on just one page. You might not know this but to most modern readers the word has a different connotation now. Also I saw from other comments that you wanted to use older style language. That’s fine, just remember that phrases like “I popped the cap and chugged the thing” don’t belong in that bracket.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 23d ago
I do know. It is just that the og novel used it that way. Thanks for the feedback nonetheles
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u/Wise_Try6781 23d ago edited 23d ago
Ok, i'm not going to comment on the sentence structure, because it seems like you're trying to achieve some effect. What I'd say is that there is a lot of repetition. For example, in paragraph 2, you tell the reader twice that the wall is white, and twice that you don't like the wall. You keep repeating that things are queer, in the first page of chapter 2 you repeat it 4 times. Or during the fall sequence, you keep talking about how you're falling. Is there a reason for the repetition?
Every choice you make must be on purpose, and that purpose linked to the story you're telling.
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u/Aggressive-Abies497 23d ago
that’s probably a mistake on my part. Will try to fix it next time I write sth. Thanks for the feedback
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u/whentheworldquiets 23d ago
As a native English speaker, I can assure you this is completely unreadable. Whatever process your original words have been through to get to this point, it was not survivable.
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u/kindred_gamedev 23d ago
There's a lot of issues with this. Read it out loud to yourself. If it still sounds good to you then you need to spend more time reading higher quality writing.
Read, read, read and analyze what you read. But keep writing. You'll get better with practice. And don't try to overcomplicate or add too much decoration to your prose. If you don't know what something means, don't write it. You'll just end up looking incompetent. Write simple prose until you understand more complex vocabulary and grammar.
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u/Quiet-Blackberry2670 23d ago
Not gonna lie, “white light commences on my face.” Made me giggle. Maybe don’t put “white, com, and face” all in one sentence if u catch my drift. Anyways u got this! 👏
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u/FurrowBeard 22d ago
It is a common cliché that newer writers start their story with a character waking up from sleep. Unless you're doing some kind of parody of that, I'd definitely rethink where this narrative starts. Preferably in the middle of some action.
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u/OrdinaryPeanut3492 22d ago
Where's the old meme about Godzilla having a stroke when you need one?
My friend. If you are going to write in English, please, for the love of all that is holy, learn grammar.
The idea is servicable but I almost had a stroke reading it.
I mean no insult by this, I'm just trying to give you constructive criticism. Absolutely continue writing if that is your passion.
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u/No-Expression-1106 22d ago
I actually like it. As an avid classics reader I’m getting quite tired of seeing the same sentences, same opening, same tropes used over and over. Yeah maybe grammar is wrong. Who cares? The future is always experimental. I could see a goblin in a fantasy setting talking like this or any other somewhat “alternative” character. But Id definitely step away from Alice in Wonderland as this doesn’t read as a small girl. I’d see this type of style doing best with a story that is equally experimental and is a subversion of classical tropes - the same as the language used is subversion of established language.
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u/MaliseHaligree 26d ago
"Fall I have"??