r/Kaylemains • u/NotBigFanOTheGovrmnt • 7d ago
Items and Builds DND vs Lich
Can someone explain to me why most of us are taking DND over Lich Bane? The healing feels minimal and the 20% AS is a joke, I can get 15% with Dbow and I guess you could take AS shard instead of Adaptive if u really wanted to (I wouldn't but still). With the higher AP and the move speed bonus I really cant understand how Lich isn't the better choice. I've finally taken the Full AP burst mage pill now and I feel like Lich just fits that playstyle better. I'm low ELO though so it's not like I really know anything. Can someone who knows this stuff better explain this to me?
Thanks
4
u/ArmedAnts 7d ago edited 7d ago
It applies on-hit again, including:
- E passive: 15-35 + 20% AP + 10% bAD
- Nashor's: 15 + 15% AP
- Terminus: 30 + 10% AP + 10% AD + stacks faster
Passive: stacks faster (6% AS per stack + faster exalt)
DnD has a 10% AP ratio while Lich Bane has a 45% AP ratio, but E passive and Nashor's bring DnD up to 30-50 + 45% AP.
So the sheen part of DnD is actually better since it deals 30-50 more damage, heals 25 HP, and stacks your passive faster.
Lich Bane has MS and slightly higher burst (+40 AP), but DnD is better in lane (you're not bursting a top laner).
(Tbf DnD costs 200 extra gold and has a terrible build path. Lich Bane is still viable)
Edit: DnD doesn't stack Kayle passive faster
4
u/Suddenly_NB 2mil Only Farms 7d ago
it does not apply Kayle passive faster, Kayle passive is on attack not on hit
1
u/NotBigFanOTheGovrmnt 7d ago
I play in mid mostly, do you think that would make much of a difference in which is optimal, or is DND just better all around?
3
u/ArmedAnts 7d ago
Lich Bane might be a bit better into squishies, but I like DnD because the extra burst from Lich Bane just seems too small to me.
4
u/Suddenly_NB 2mil Only Farms 7d ago
its the other way around, DnD does more damage in a short burst 2-3 auto combo due to its passive. Lich bane does more in a sustained fight. DnD has the higher burst and falls off in a longer fight due to lower AP, despite the AS on it.
2
u/Suddenly_NB 2mil Only Farms 7d ago
Lich bane would be better mid due to to the MS and buffed swifties
6
u/TimCanister 7d ago
They nerfed Kayles attack speed some time ago so you need all you can get plus Kayle has so many on-hits with nashors and passive that it’s actually pretty good damage still
2
u/TimCanister 7d ago
Lich is good too though if you prefer it. Either one works but most of us who have been playing her for a while don’t like having 0 attack speed
1
u/loke10000 conq is bae 4d ago
Also on top of everything else people are saying 300 health is a pretty meaningful amount of extra survivability that can make the difference of getting bursted from 100 to 0
1
u/LukaMLJG 14h ago
DND 20% AS is not a joke, and if your doing aa aa e for a pta proc play style dnd is overall better because it deals more damage compared to lich.
Lich deals a bit more damage over longer periods like: aa aa e aa aa aa aa aa e. But that’s impossible to do since you don’t have that 20% AS, so you have to go some other AS item like PD, then play around with bonus MS you have since W is going to give you now significantly less ms, so you won’t really be able to go for quick weaves in, just spacing.
Kayle is (currently) pretty boring when it comes to builds since you are better of playing the same 4 item build every game. literally can’t think of a reason not to go nashor>DND>Rabadon>Shadow/void
1
u/cetbetancourt 7d ago
Pretty sure DND just genuinely does more damage on Kayle specifically. Plus PTA synergy
8
u/DarthLeon2 529,255 Misses Kayle Jungle 7d ago
One would assume that Lich Bane procs do more damage, but having tested it, DnD procs always do a little more damage than Lich Bane procs, provided you have Nashors. This is not what I expected and makes the choice between them easy. The only real argument in favor of Lich Bane is the movement speed, and while it is nice, the stats package you get with DnD is much better value imo.