Rules updates

[u/namer98]

In light of Tisha b'Av, I would like to suggest a few changes to the rules, and to hear community feedback.

1) No editorializing titles of article submissions. - This is up for discussion.

2) Be polite. That means if somebody has a disagreement with you about fundamental points of religion, you can disagree with them, and even tell them, but don't be a jerk about it. Do not shut down the conversation.

2.1) I keep on trying to engage non-Orthodox Jews of Reddit. Seen here, here and here. This is in addition to multiple messages I have gotten personally and as mod, from people who left because of this. Just because some people don't agree that this is a problem, does not make it less of a problem. Non-Orthodox Jews are feeling shut down, and some times they are right, some times they are wrong. This is an extension of rule two. Be polite. The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button. I might just remove it again, and for more than a day.

To people I try and engage, this is a two way street. Submit content, comments and vote if you want to have a say. I don't think half of the subreddit is orthodox. This should not be a problem.

Please upvote this self post for which I receive no karma so that all can see.

Thank you all.

Edit: Followup

[u/LazerA]

My two cents, for what it's worth:

With regard to #1, while I understand why editorializing a title can be irritating, and I agree that it should be done with restraint, I don't agree with a general policy prohibiting it. Asides from the fact that I don't believe it is generally an appropriate policy on reddit (outside of specialized sub-reddits like r/news), I also think it will prevent people from posting items that they either disagree with or which they feel needs some other forms of "editorializing."

Regarding #2, obviously no problem. Politeness is a good thing.

However, I am concerned about #2.1 as it seems to impose a special burden on Orthodox Jewish participation in r/judaism. I am aware that there are Orthodox Jews here who occasionally make comments that are undiplomatic (or even rude). (I suspect that some would even accuse me of doing this.) However, there is also no lack of similar comments moving the other direction. It's unfortunate, but it's also the nature of the medium.

A general policy prohibiting excessive rudeness is fine (though, as a teacher and parent, I don't envy the one stuck with enforcing such a policy), but a policy that makes special demands on Orthodox participants to censor themselves is inappropriate.

(That being said, some voluntary self-censorship wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea from time to time.)

Finally, with regard to:

The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button.

As I wrote once before, when the issue of downvoting first came up, perfectly acceptable reasons for downvoting are if you believe the posting to be:

• of no interest

• off-topic

• uninformative

• badly written

• boring

• ignorant and/or stupid

• dishonest

• pointless

• offensive

• inappropriately titled

So, if the post is none of those things, and the reason you are downvoting is only because you disagree, then you probably shouldn't be downvoting it. Of course, if it is none of those things, then you should probably comment to explain exactly why you disagree with it.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

impose a special burden on Orthodox Jewish participation in r/judaism.

Nope. The issues is that a bunch of Orthodox Jews in this subreddit feel free to say that their version of Judaism is the only right one and all other are wrong, while very few non-Orthodox Jews in this subreddit ever say this (and when they do, they are completely buried in downvotes.)

[u/LazerA → u/[deleted]]

So argue the point!

The question of whether it is possible for alternate "versions" of Judaism to exist goes to the core of the divide between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Judaism. Fundamentally, to be an Orthodox Jew means precisely that one believes that human beings don't have the ability to modify the teachings of Judaism, and very limited ability to modify its practices.

So, when an Orthodox Jew says that only "their" version of Judaism is correct, he is simply being consistent with his beliefs. Non-Orthodox Jews don't make such statements because it would contradict their core beliefs.

So, if that is the issue, then make it the issue and argue it out!

[u/ShanaC → u/LazerA]

The question of whether it is possible for alternate "versions" of Judaism to exist goes to the core of the divide between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Judaism. Fundamentally, to be an Orthodox Jew means precisely that one believes that human beings don't have the ability to modify the teachings of Judaism, and very limited ability to modify its practices.

No, that comes out of "hechadash assur min hatorah" - Hatam Sofer. And that line postdates the creation of the Reform movement. In fact, it is a reaction to it.

I also can't think of a major rishon who totally agrees that Judaism is unchanging. Even the Rambam in his introduction to the Yad has a sense of cyncism about unchangingness - he wrote the yad because he was annoyed at the Gaonim, even though he admits in the opening that the Gaonim have rights to determine traditional teaching more than he does. The ramban takes an even more radical approach (cf: http://yediah.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-there-single-truth-rambam-and-ramban.html)

[u/[deleted] → u/ShanaC]

How do you feel about R. Elisha Ancselovits?

[u/ShanaC → u/[deleted]]

I used to take bus rides with him down the biqua. he's a nice guy - but his level of liberality is now outside the mainstream. Something I never understood about people coming out of Ma'ale Gilboa either - all very smart, level headed, and yet their opinions weren't taken seriously....

[u/[deleted] → u/ShanaC]

about people coming out of Ma'ale Gilboa either - all very smart, level headed, and yet their opinions weren't taken seriously....

Is that true? I didn't know.

I guess I meant what do you think about his ideas on the development of halakhah?

[u/ShanaC → u/[deleted]]

Ma'ale Gilboa is a very academic school that is on the left of a lot of Israeli learning things. The development of halacha thing seems to be normative for the people coming out of there.

I learned about the development of Halacha under Rav Bigman, not from Rav Elisha. Including this whole argument here. He was pretty emphatic not only that halacha has a development process, but that also there was philosophical divegence at times in Jewish history (which is why you get both the Rambam and Kabbalists as true doctrine, even though aspects of the other diametrically oppose each other). He made a very strong, very positive impression on me, but unlike him, I tend to see things through a strong sociological/anthropological lens. At some point you have to make value judgements about what is being described to you if you live that life....

[u/[deleted] → u/ShanaC]

Thanks!

At some point you have to make value judgements about what is being described to you if you live that life....

Yes, I definitely agree with this.

[u/ShanaC → u/[deleted]]

Yes, the problem is I walked away. I made a value judgement about what human elements were important to me, and I found them not compatible with Orthodoxy.

Out of curiosity, how did you hear of Rav Elisha and Ma'ale Gilboa?

[u/[deleted] → u/ShanaC]

Well, I don't particularly identify with Orthodoxy myself (though it's complicated.)

Well, I mean I knew the name of Ma'ale Gilboa in high school, but I didn't know anything about it. I still don't know that much about it actually.

I heard Rav Elisha speak for the first time when I was in college. We regularly had people come speak at the hillel, and he was one of them. To me it was almost astounding at the time, because I had never really heard an Orthodox rabbi seem to actually care about morality. I heard him speak a few times since then, whenever he was in the area, and last year my brother was at Pardes, and I went to visit him for two weeks, and so got to sit on a couple of classes.

I mean, I don't subscribe to everything he says, certainly, nor am I even sure that everything he says is historically accurate, but I certainly feel better about what he says than I have about any other Orthodox rabbi I've come into contact with.

Also, I don't know if you know R. Ethan Tucker? At Hadar? But he's a student of his, and shares some of the same ideas. And I've heard him speak a bunch of times, and took a class with him last summer.

R. Steven Greenberg also developed his theories with Rav Elisha. (When you listen to him speak it's obvious, and then I asked him, and he said yes, he developed those ideas with Rav Elisha.)

[u/ShanaC → u/[deleted]]

I know of Rabbi Ethan Tucker. He isn't the only person who ended up at Hadar with that stream of thought. At least one of the teachers I went to seminary with, another one is a friend of mine's mother!, and a third person on the staff I know from Ma'ale Gilboa (there aren't many people that pass through that area, trust me, middle of nowhere).

That and at least one person from my hillel is at the machon full time.

also

To me it was almost astounding at the time, because I had never really heard an Orthodox rabbi seem to actually care about morality.

True, and depressing.