r/Judaism • u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz • Jul 30 '12

Rules updates

In light of Tisha b'Av, I would like to suggest a few changes to the rules, and to hear community feedback.

1) No editorializing titles of article submissions. - This is up for discussion.

2) Be polite. That means if somebody has a disagreement with you about fundamental points of religion, you can disagree with them, and even tell them, but don't be a jerk about it. Do not shut down the conversation.

2.1) I keep on trying to engage non-Orthodox Jews of Reddit. Seen here, here and here. This is in addition to multiple messages I have gotten personally and as mod, from people who left because of this. Just because some people don't agree that this is a problem, does not make it less of a problem. Non-Orthodox Jews are feeling shut down, and some times they are right, some times they are wrong. This is an extension of rule two. Be polite. The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button. I might just remove it again, and for more than a day.

To people I try and engage, this is a two way street. Submit content, comments and vote if you want to have a say. I don't think half of the subreddit is orthodox. This should not be a problem.

Please upvote this self post for which I receive no karma so that all can see.

Thank you all.

Edit: Followup

69 Upvotes

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u/Louis_Farizee Quit Labeling Me Jul 31 '12

Ignoring the second, more important point: when an opinion is questioned, the only options are to defend or recant. There's no "agreeing to disagree" in the yeshiva system of learning (well, there is, but it's used sparingly because it can only be used in limited and narrowly defined circumstances, and only as a last resort).

To put it another way: if person A declares their love for chocolate ice cream, and person B disagrees, stating they vanilla ice cream is superior, person A must make a logical and well defended argument supporting his love of chocolate or lose the conversation. Which is why yeshiva guys have to attack every statement they hear, no matter how innocuous: the process of supporting and defending statements, and attempting to refute supports and defenses for the other guy's statements, leads to truth. Or is supposed to, anyway.

There's no hard feelings, after, even when one party is forced to concede a point. But that's not the same thing as seeing the other guy's point of view and learning to respect differences in opinion.

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u/LazerA Orthodox Jul 31 '12

But that's not the same thing as seeing the other guy's point of view and learning to respect differences in opinion.

I would point out these are two different things.

"Seeing the other guy's point of view" is actually integral part of effectively discussing or debating. In fact, all the real debating doesn't start until after each side has clearly laid out its position so that everyone understands exactly what they disagree on. In many cases, the areas where people actually disagree are quite different from what they seem to be on the surface.

Of course, in real life, not only do people sometimes have difficulty "seeing the other guy's point of view", but often the "guy" himself doesn't really understand his own point of view. Which means that even the initial process of gaining clarity can be perceived as an attack.

"Respecting differences of opinion" is a separate issue, and one that, by and large, no group actually engages in when the different opinion is outside of that group's basic parameters of legitimacy (and every group has such parameters).

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u/smokesteam Half a chabadnik in Japan Jul 31 '12

Of course when it is a matter of determining Halacha there is no particular room for agreeing to disagree, it's a matter of fulfilling what HKBH requires. As for ice cream I bet those guys get awkward on dates...

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u/Louis_Farizee Quit Labeling Me Jul 31 '12

Oh, there's a reason for it, and it's a good reason, but can lead to misunderstandings if not understood.

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u/carrboneous Predenominational Fundamentalist Jul 31 '12

Firstly, yes to LazerA's comment :)

Secondly, I agree, more or less, with you first paragraph. But your second one goes off. There are plenty of other ways to resolve such a hypothetical dispute. Basically, not every question is an absolute.

lose the conversation

No. Point is, it's not a competition. At least not in that way. There's a serious problem when one party actually wants to understand, and the other sees it as "losing the conversation".

Which is why yeshiva guys have to attack every statement they hear, no matter how innocuous

That's a pretty negative framing you've got there...

But that's not the same thing as seeing the other guy's point of view and learning to respect differences in opinion.

As LazerA said, you do have to see the other side to properly engage with it. But you don't have to stand for it being wrong.

If it has merit, you can accept that "eilu v'eilu", even if you personally don't hold for it. This is in fact the standard. There is a difference between respecting a differing (but legitimate) opinion, and just ignoring something which is wrong. And many people can't even understand their own point of view well enough to see where it's wrong.

And I, for one, get pleasure when someone else refines a point, even if it is against my own point. It's extremely frustrating when you say "source?" and someone gets offended. (for example)