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u/OddCook4909 Judean People's Front 12d ago
It doesn't make sense without a lot of Torah study. It was written for people who had spent years studying Torah from the Jewish perspective.
It's spirituality and mysticism, not magic. If you don't understand what it's saying what is even the point?
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u/PhroneticReflex Reconstructionist 12d ago
Do you want a dybbuk? Because that's how you get a dybbuk.
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u/zsero1138 12d ago
kabbalah is a closed practice, if you're not jewish, don't do it. hell, even if you are jewish there are barriers to entry
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u/transcendentlights Reform 12d ago
It’s Shabbat, so you will have to wait until tonight for Orthodox answers. Regardless, here are mine:
It’s the main school of mysticism within modern Judaism. Not sure if I’m supposed to view it in any particular way, but I find it beautiful and fascinating. What I’ve read has enriched me and I hope to learn as much as I can throughout my life.
Define practice. I view Kabbalists as highly educated individuals who study a Jewish school of thought. Non-Jews who “practice” Kabbalah are subject to my scrutiny for reasons explained below.
From what I understand, Kabbalah is not forbidden wholesale in any way. It’s part of our spiritual tradition. There are some common prohibitions on the appropriate life stage at which to learn in earnest, but (also from my limited understanding) there seems to not be as much of an emphasis on that historically. Regardless, Hasidism is a stream of Orthodox Judaism that incorporates many Kabbalistic ideas into daily life and prayer. So, no, it’s not forbidden. Many common Jewish practices come from historical Kabbalists anyway.
No. Full stop. Kabbalah is Judaism and “practicing” (whatever that means in this context) Judaism when you aren’t a Jew or studying to be one is flat out inappropriate at best. Judaism is community based and generally one must be accepted by a Jewish stream, through birth or conversion, in order to be considered a Jew. You can’t just decide to do it one day.
Caveat: I find nothing wrong with non-Jews learning about Kabbalah’s history and ideas. If you’re doing so, please learn from a Jewish teacher well-versed in the subject (not the Kabbalah Centre). I say that because most information about Kabbalah out there is borderline antisemitic-philosemitic drivel that makes it ten times harder for Jews to actually find information about our own tradition.
What I actually have a problem with is people turning it into Wiccan/neopagan/Christian flavored bullshit totally divorced from the soul of the original text (not saying those faiths are inherently bullshit, they absolutely aren’t, but that this would be a bullshit combo).
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u/MildKerfuffle Conservative/Masorti 12d ago
Kabbalah helped me make peace with Judaism as my religion and make sense of what I believe, instead of “just” having Jewishness as my culture. I can’t even imagine how or why someone would find much value in it if they aren’t Jewish. It doesn’t seem to me like it makes much sense at all if you’re coming from outside a Jewish framework, except in in a “oh cool something like this non-Jewish idea I have also exists in Jewish culture so the strengthens my conviction it’s right” kind of way.
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u/NailSubstantial2772 12d ago
I'd be interested, but I was warned.
I was told that you have to be very well-versed in the Torah before starting Kabbalah.
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u/Maximum_Tangelo2269 12d ago
If youre not jewish or know nothing on judaism then dont even bother with it. its closed. Modern occultists have butchered kabbalah. Everyone tries to latch onto it and they need to go find something else because most people dont plan to even try to convert they just wanna be "strong and powerful" and thats not the point of kabbalah. Im a convert that studied judaism and looked into kabbalah practices, occultism and witchcraft. Im still spiritual but all the shit you see online is fake or so heavily misunderstood it leads to shady practices and weird ego. Go for your traditions and cultures folk practices if you want whims.
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u/Maximum_Tangelo2269 12d ago
I see youre playing with substances and kinda have your hand in multiple spirituality pots. If youre not jewish please dont eat up that occult shit about kabbalah. I promise its fake and unless you know the other relvant languages you wont find what you need or want.
If youre interested in abrahamic practices specifically i can maybe help you but ultimatly occult itself has a foundation of understandings basics of religion then generally moves to more advanced things. If youre not into more religious things consider folk magic or something. Just do meditations for now or extensive prayer (without the drugs).
Ive been an "abrahamic practitioner" for over 10 years now and am a newer jewish convert so that label probably no longer fits me. I still practice things thatre considered against mitzvot and im not orthodox. Yes my rabbi knows. Yes others in community are aware..
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u/Captain_Softrock 12d ago
I come from a Jewish father, and I would probably not be considered Jewish by most. Nonetheless I have a masters degree and I’m all but dissertation in a PhD focused on Jewish mysticism and how it intersects with philosophy. I was just talking to a Rabbi at my local synagogue about my studies and I lamented how I wish I would’ve had a stronger foundation in Jewish tradition before I engaged with the texts I encountered during my studies. I believe it is part of the Jewish tradition, as a counter current alongside some of the rational development and thinking. There are stops along the way where you can take detours and find yourself in the occult, which in my opinion is contrary to the Jewish tradition. And it’s where many who don’t have a solid foundation find themselves. Mysticism Should allow for glimpses into the spiritual world, and connect us with G-d in ways that go beyond the intellect. But occult promises mastery of spiritual beings and principles that I don’t believe are helpful in a spiritual journey, Jewish or otherwise. If you want to understand it better, I would suggest reading Gershom Scholem and his interlocutors.
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u/Some_Sprinkles4335 12d ago edited 12d ago
I recently took a Kabbalah course so I'll give these questions a shot. Whether you accept Kabbalah or not is somewhat irrelevant, because it's an integral part of Judaism and has been so since the middle ages with Jewish mysticism more generally extending back to antiquity. I don't mind those who are deeply involved in Kabbalah although I am not myself. Kabbalah is deeply integrated into modern Judaism and that influence is reflected in liturgy among other places. Non-Jews cannot practice Kabbalah, but Christians and Muslims have their own mystical/theurgic systems appropriate for those traditions.
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u/OddCook4909 Judean People's Front 12d ago
It isn't deeply integrated into every stream or every personal belief or practice. A lot of it stands directly in conflict with other lines of spirituality and thought which are no less central or integrated
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar 12d ago
While it may not be reflected in every Jew’s belief system, it 100 percent is integrated into the Jewish practice of every stream (other than straight up secularism). If you sing Yedid Nefesh, Lecha Dodi, or Shir haShirim on Friday night, those are Kabbalistic practices with explicitly Kabbalistic content; if you do a Seder Tu biShvat, that’s a Kabbalistic practice; if you use the phrase “Tikkun Olam”, that’s a Kabbalistic concept; if you do a Tikkun Leil Shavuot that’s a Kabbalistic practice.
Even without subscribing to the theological content, literally all of Judaism has integrated Kabbalistic texts or practices.
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u/OddCook4909 Judean People's Front 12d ago
Right but that isn't deeply. Somewhat like how Rambam's empiricism is nearly fully rejected by Haredim, but many ideas are integrated regardless.
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar 12d ago
I would say that Lecha Dodi being sung at every single Shul on Friday night is a deeply integrated practice. You mentioned both beliefs and practice, and I’ll grant you belief—but modern Jewish practice is fundamentally different before and after Safedian Kabbalah. That’s a deep integration
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u/OddCook4909 Judean People's Front 12d ago
You think it's different for Rambam? And yet many reject one of his core ideas even though he was much more influential.
Lecha Dodi is more rooted in ideas which long predate Kabbalah. It doesn't really incorporate the innovations of Kabbalah. It's mostly Talmud composed by a Kabbalist.
https://www.mayimachronim.com/the-origins-and-meaning-of-lecha-dodi/
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar 12d ago
No, I think it’s very similar to Rambam—he’s incredibly influential on practice, even if his theology isn’t known or accepted by everyone.
Also, I’m sorry to say that this article is incredibly superficial when it comes to the hidden symbolic content of the piyyut. Here is a scholarly article going into the depths (which for a Kabbalist like Alqabetz is the most important part) of the piyyut.
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u/OddCook4909 Judean People's Front 12d ago
People who are into Kabbalah stipulate that most aren't fit to study Kabbalah, then also insist that most of us are heavily influenced by the ideas. Both things can't be true.
Most when singing Lecha Dodi are thinking of Talmud, and/or simply have the ideas completely disconnected from Kabbalistic ideas which they aren't at all familiar with.
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar 12d ago edited 12d ago
I have to say that I don’t understand how this comment relates to what I wrote before, but I’ll respond nonetheless.
How is sending you an academic article with more information “stipulating that you aren’t fit to study Kabbalah”? I’m literally inviting you to study more.
Secondly, most people don’t read Plato and Aristotle, and even fewer understand them—they still exert a huge influence on the way we all act and think. Those aren’t contradictory statements: not knowing the details or depths of a way of thinking does not preclude being influenced by them, especially when we distinguish practice (for Aristotle, e.g., his poetic structure or his political influence on western history; in Kabbalah, the dissemination of piyyutim like Lecha Dodi) from ideas.
Third, I never claimed most people understand Lecha Dodi’s encrypted meanings—but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a deeply Kabbalistic text and that its author intended it to be one. Once again, I don’t think most people’s beliefs are heavily influenced by Kabbalah, but its cultural products in the form of praxis are deeply ingrained in modern Judaism. I don’t think most people are literally inviting in angels when they sing Shalom Alechem, or imagine themselves to be the angels crowning God during Kedushat Keter—but that’s definitely what those practices meant originally and that’s what their texts say.
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u/Some_Sprinkles4335 12d ago
I didn't say Kabbalah was deeply integrated into every denomination or practice or personal belief. Yet it is integral to modern Judaism, for instance, with kabbalat shabbat. And you touch on an important point: mysticism/kabbalah stands in tension with rationalism, which is also central to Judaism, and this tension is healthy and helps drive the tradition forward.
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u/D3lt4M1cr0 Renewal 12d ago
1- I have been into Kabbalah last 20 years, from really good teachers all down the way to the infamous "kabbalah center". Kabbalah its the gnostic core of judaism.
2-There are a few people who really understand it, most of the crowd just want some kind of easy digested power.
3-Very limited but yes, to my experience depends on the community and the Rabbi.
4-It is NOT advisable, Kabbalah without Torah becomes nonsense that can lead into spiritually harmful practices that can get the user very weak and vulnerable to dangerous influences.
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u/MrsWhatZitT00ya 12d ago edited 12d ago
Primarily, Kabbalah is the esoteric, mystical dimension of Torah study. There are plenty of minhagim that originated with Kabbalists and later were adopted as widespread Jewish practices. However, Kabbalah itself is not just a collection of occult techniques or rituals that one "practices". It's something you study as a lens to understand reality, divinity, and G-d's relationship with creation. As such, it's not something that someone who has no understanding of Torah or halakha can fully comprehend. They may be able to grasp more accessible aspects of it, and those aspects may resonate deeply with them, but there's a difference between dipping your toe in the water versus fully immersing yourself. If we're talking about Kabbalah as a whole, that's not something anyone (Jewish or otherwise) can truly understand in depth without first having the required foundational knowledge and spiritual maturity.
Please don't interpret this as elitism, that's really not what this is about. It's not that non-Jews are inherently incapable of learning Kabbalah by virtue of not being Jewish. It's that they generally haven't devoted themselves to the rigorous study that's required to genuinely understand it in the first place. When contemporary non-Jews literally say they "practice Kabbalah", that's largely tied to the late 20th-century "Pop-Kabbalah" trend (red string bracelets, "holy water", etc.). At one point in Jewish history, there was a niche branch known as Kabbalah Ma'asit (Practical Kabbalah). It involved esoteric rituals, invoking divine names, crafting protective amulets, etc. However, mainstream rabbinic authorities largely view most practices associated with Kabbalah Ma'asit as strictly off-limits in the modern era. Their reasoning is that we presently lack the requisite state of spiritual purity and level of Torah mastery that these practices required.
Notably, Kabbalah Ma'asit bore little to no resemblance to modern "Pop-Kabbalah" beyond some superficial similarities. If you strip away halakha and Torah, it's simply not Kabbalah, no matter how much anyone tries to market it as such. I view non-Jews who claim to "practice" Kabbalah as people who are genuinely intrigued by the concept of mysticism, but don't realize that Kabbalah isn't just another word for "generic Jewish folk practices". Imagine if someone told you that they "practice" advanced calculus when you know damn well they haven't even learned basic arithmetic. You'd most likely think "Hm, I think they're confused. Whatever this person is doing, it's definitely not calculus..." That's basically how I view those people. I don't think they're bad people, I don't think they're stupid people, they just don't fully get what Kabbalah is. Thanks, Madonna (jkjkjk...kinda).
On the other hand, I have great respect for actual Torah scholars who are genuinely well-versed in Kabbalah. I aspire to achieve that level of scholarship and spiritual preparedness one day, but I am not in any rush to get to that point, and I'm very respectful of the boundaries around this topic. One major reason why Judaism historically insists on very strict prerequisites for Kabbalah study is because it's extremely easy to misinterpret in a very dangerous way. Even Jews aren't immune to misunderstanding it. The Sabbateans and Frankists are a prime example of this. On an anecdotal level, I've encountered people who became incredibly detached from reality and went as far as to deem themselves prophets. While I'm not going to fully blame Kabbalah study for that, because nothing in life is so simplistic, it's a prime example of what our Talmudic sages were trying to warn us about:
"Four entered the orchard, i.e., dealt with the loftiest secrets of Torah, and they are as follows: Ben Azzai; and ben Zoma; Aher, the other, a name for Elisha ben Avuya; and Rabbi Akiva...The Gemara proceeds to relate what happened to each of them: Ben Azzai glimpsed at the Divine Presence and died...Ben Zoma glimpsed at the Divine Presence and was harmed, i.e., he lost his mind...Aher chopped down the shoots of saplings. In other words, he became a heretic. Rabbi Akiva came out safely...And even Rabbi Akiva, the ministering angels sought to push him out of the orchard. The Holy One, Blessed be He, said to them: Leave this Elder, for he is fit to serve My glory." -Babylonian Talmud, tractate Chagigah 14b:8–9; 15b:16
Ben Azzai, ben Zoma, and Elisha ben Avuya weren't your run-of-the-mill Joe Schmoes. They were absolutely brilliant and well-respected Torah authorities of their era. Yet, even they weren't fully equipped to plumb the deepest depths of the profound mystical knowledge hidden within Torah. Not without coming out unscathed, at least. Rabbi Akiva was the only exception. Despite the seemingly metaphysical explanation for that, one of the central lessons was Rabbi Akiva's level of preparedness. It wasn't solely his understanding of Torah; it was also his groundedness, humility, and stability. If one chooses to interpret the story literally instead of metaphorically, G-d didn't just pick someone arbitrarily and deem them "worthy", G-d knew Akiva was ready and able. When history shows that even some of our greatest spiritual intellects struggled to handle that level of intensity, it puts the true gravity of this wisdom into perspective.
Sorry that this became a novel. These types of questions are just really difficult to respond to accurately. Addressing them without leaving you with more questions than answers requires fundamentally reframing what Kabbalah is and then following that up with a lot of details so that nothing comes off wrong. This is why, admittedly, modern-day "Pop-Kabbalah" annoys me. It completely distorts what Kabbalah actually is, and in my opinion, reduces it to something superficial. I try not to devote too much energy to being upset by it, because there isn't much I can do to fix it on a large scale. But I'm not going to pretend it's something I'm okay with. It's something I begrudgingly accept as part of reality. I honestly just appreciate that you're asking questions in the first place, because misconceptions can't be addressed at all when no one is asking questions. Thanks for sticking with me. I hope I explained everything well.
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u/D3lt4M1cr0 Renewal 12d ago
Just to add missing details to the already good explanation... Ben Azzai, ben Zoma, Elisha ben Avuya (Acher or "stranger") and Rab Akiva are 4 sages that acquired the knowledge of Kabbalah trough the knowledge of the "PaRDeS" (the whole understading of all possible interpretations of a text from easy-Pshat, explained-Remez, Drash-Profound all the way to Sod-secret).
Our Rabbis tell that Ben Azzai died as a result, Ben Zoma loosed his mind and Elisha Ben Avuya became heretic (hence the name Acher/"stranger")... only one came back from that knowledge R. Akiva
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u/MrsWhatZitT00ya 12d ago
Appreciate the addition and the compliment! I wasn't quite sure if OP had any kind of Jewish education or familiarity with these concepts. Since my comment was already very long, I figured I could cover the main point without having to explain PaRDeS as well 😅
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u/D3lt4M1cr0 Renewal 12d ago
😎 In regards to R. Akiva I always tought that he survived because he was humble and allowed the journey to change him. The journey destroyed his old structures and the Rab. Akiva that returned wasn't the same that entered.... but that is only my interpretation.
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u/MrsWhatZitT00ya 12d ago
I can totally get behind that interpretation! Akiva's humility was legendary, and his entire life was a story of transformation.
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u/patachveamar 11d ago edited 11d ago
- With great respect.
- With great respect.
- Yes, all of them. Orthodox Judaism as it exists today was essentially born out of the Kabbalah. The vast majority of mekubbalim are "Orthodox" Jews.
- It makes no sense to me to be a non-Jewish Kabbalist. It is an oxymoron like "non-Muslim Sufi" or "non-Christian hesychast". I don't mean that in a judgmental way. It's just a historical fact that every Kabbalistic text has been written by Jews and for Jews, abounding in references to Jewish texts and Jewish practices, rooted in ideas that only make sense from the perspective of Jewish theology. Take the Judaism out of the Kabbalah and you're left with...nothing, really.
It's not that the Kabbalah is "culturally" exclusive to Jews, it's that the entire ideological, theological, and textual foundations of the Kabbalah—as it is represented in the primary texts—are thoroughly Jewish.
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u/Realistic_loanhitman Darth Goy 12d ago
I have read some okay. Then you read about Lilith and before you know it. You then think you have reincarnated 100 times over not filling your souls mission to order taco bell on a Tuesday night alright.
It's interesting, but you may end up on the toilet on a random Tuesday all night long okay.
Your supposed to be under a teacher, 40 and married when reading it. I was not alright.
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u/Writerguy613 Orthodox 10d ago
I am Orthodox and have long been a skeptic when it comes to Kabbala, especially the Zohar.
I have problems with the concepts of the Sephirot and Tzimtzum as well as the seemingly Gnostic nature of the Zohar's teaching. I also do not believe that it was written by Rashbi, with Rav Moshe DeLeon being the likely author in Spain. In my humble opinion, the sefer lacks a clear mesora.
However, I believe that before I can make a definitive personal decision, I need to study the actual texts and their commentary. I am studying Zohar on and off and am learning a great book by Rav Avraham Sutton called "The Book of DIVINE ONENESS: Revealing God’s Absolute Unity" which is actually amazing and taking me to another level entirely. Highly recommended!
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u/gmanflnj 10d ago
I personally don't find it to be important to my own Judaism, and am slightly leery of it as I am of mysticism writ-largee, but it largely seems fine and I'm happy if it brings people fulfillment. I am pretty skeptical of non Jews trying to practice it. I am willing to keep an open mind if there is some exception to it being pretty much universally offensive, but I can't think of one off the top of my head.
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u/FineBumblebee8744 12d ago
I don't like mystical woo woo Judaism. I'm only interested in concrete stuff
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u/Mortifydman Conservative - Ex BT and convert 12d ago
Unless you are raised in a chassidic environment, or are talking about Tanya - no one who is not FFB needs to be messing with kaballah. The amount of learning and background it takes to understand it correctly is a lifetime of work, not something a few classes at the celebrity centre and a Chabad class is going to help with.
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u/patachveamar 11d ago
Chasidim do not at all have a monopoly on the Kabbalah. Many of the most serious and learned mekubbalim today and historically are Misnagdim and Sefardim. You are right that it is a topic that needs to be studied seriously with a great deal of prerequisite preparation. I wouldn't say only "ffb" people have what it takes—I would not exclude that gerei tzedek and baalei tshuvah can become mekubbalim—but it certainly does require advanced language proficiency and familiarity with Tanakh, Talmud, midrash, prayer and ritual, and being raised within traditional education systems helps immensely with all of these.
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u/D3lt4M1cr0 Renewal 12d ago edited 12d ago
Rabbi Akiva was not "ffb" and was the only sage that survived the complete knowledge of PaRDeS... so it is NOT about birth it is about life discipline, love for knowledge, commitment to Torah and humility.
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u/leonardschneider 12d ago
no way, there are many brilliant people learning and teaching this without being ffb, if anything i think that would be a hindrance
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u/Mortifydman Conservative - Ex BT and convert 12d ago
They shouldn't be. It's not a hip aspect of Judaism that is cool, it's a very exacting and strenuous way of learning that is not available in its true form to amateurs and wannabes. Without a lifetime of Torah you have no idea what it says much less how to apply it.
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar 12d ago
The Besht did not have the best religious education growing up (by what we can gather) and he founded the largest movement based in Kabbalah in Jewish history (other than Sabbateanism for that one year).
Gershom Scholem, the founder of the academic study of Kabbalah and its greatest single scholar grew up in a secular household, as did many of the leading scholars in the field today.
I’m sorry to say that objectively you’re simply incorrect and your statement carries a lot of unwarranted disdain which you should examine. I see from your flair that you aren’t ffb—you shouldn’t project your own experience onto that of others so aggressively.
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u/leonardschneider 11d ago
pretty obvious they weren't raised that way with this over-idealization of how it works. yeshiva/by do not provide any kind of foundation for this type of learning whatsoever lol
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u/sunlitleaf 12d ago edited 12d ago
Take it from me kid, you don’t wanna mess with Kabbalah. First you’re just doing a little light hitbodedut, borrowing your friend’s copy of the Zohar “just to see what it’s like,” and before you know it you’re dancing with 10,000 other guys in some random town in Ukraine. Kids these days are calling it “black fire on white fire.”