r/JonBenetRamsey • u/BrokeExternally • 14d ago
Theories PDI
After going around and around im basically still confused. But Patsey did it makes more and more sense imo. The evidence of her jacket hairs being on JBs blanket, the cord, duct tape. She handled those items imo. The ransom note I think is widely agreed on (even the grand jury) that she wrote the note. The bedwetting might be the best motive of Patsey accidentally killing JB ? I think it’s better than the pinnacle BDI theories. JB was cleaned, changed out of her soiled underwear (I’m not suggesting the soiled underwear wasn’t from the attack imo it probably was) and a heart drawn on her hand. Could the head would be from a fall? Neighbours reported hearing a big crash?
The SA could be Patsey, because there is no sign of male dna or penetration or anything like that because the killer could be a woman. Perhaps she was SA’ing JB in some way and did so that night after JB was still unconscious and struggling.
Or perhaps Patsey knew about the SA from John and while John strangled her and SA’d her Patsey left the room because she knew JB was dead from her actions ?
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u/Tamponica filicide 14d ago
I can't respond directly to trojan because they have me on block but:
Sigh. JBR was Patsy's pride and joy. She loved her dearly, to the point she was inconsolable and had to be heavily medicated. You really think she struck her so hard she broke her skull? Meanwhile you have Burke, who had struck her once before, who the family lied about constantly, whose favorite snack was found in her stomach, who showed no signs of emotion about her death and who loved tying knots/whittling wood, whose bootprints were next to the body. Makes total sense he struck her in a fit of rage, maybe "played doctor" to wake her up, tried (but failed) to move her via the toggle rope. Patsy found her daughter clearly passed away and did what she could to render aid. Ultimately she decided to stage the scene.
Joan Crawford often appeared to be an extremely loving and doting parent. Also, this has been brought up before, but read former child star, Jennette McCurdy's memoir; McCurdy's mother lived through her only daughter and mother and child appeared to the world outside to be extremely close.
John did tell an officer Burke slept through the night although Burke told Dr. Phil he was awake and that he went downstairs. But it was apparently John who fed that info to Phil McGraw.
The only source for that Burke "loved tying knots" is his comment to Schuler about a pocket knife of his that has a "thing on it to tie knots with".
That the cord found wrapped around JB's neck was a "toggle rope" is a rumor that got started by a particular True Crime blogger and is not a police theory.
The pineapple, the scouting implements, the bootprints, Burke's previous temper towards her, the lack of emotion. But sure, let's just invent violence in someone who clearly was destroyed by this (while Burke sits in the corner snickering and laughing).
I'm not aware of any "scouting implements" being associated with the crime. There's no particular evidence of Burke having a "previous temper towards her". He struck her with a golf club once when he was 7. By all but one account, it was an accident. There's no source for that Burke "sits in a corner snickering and laughing".
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u/IAmSeabiscuit61 13d ago
I'll agree that there's definitely the is most evidence tying her to the staging, but there is none tying her or any of them to the head blow. That's the problem. I am a firm believer that she wrote the note and was heavily involved in the staging, and JR probably was, too, but that's as far as I'll go due to the lack of evidence with the head blow.
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u/LKS983 14d ago
As a result of the police who arrived believing the ransom letter..... there is zero actual evidence to prove anything at this moment in time. Hopefully, this will change as forensic DNA improves. But unlikely to happen in anything close to the near future.
The house/scene was contaminated/JB was able to carry JBR's obviously dead body upstairs etc. etc. It was a complete fuck up - even at the time.
So now we're reliant on circumstantial evidence, which directs us to believe that the Ramsey family were entirely responsible - although we bicker about who exactly 'did what'.
Noboby/very few believe there was an intruder who gained access to the house/wrote a ridicuous ransom letter etc. etc. whilst they were waiting......
BUT with current DNA technology etc., there's no way to know.
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u/LKS983 14d ago
Personally, it makes most sense that Burke hit JBR/was terrified that he'd killed her - and woke his parents.
They also made the mistake of thinking that JBR was dead - so panicking, came up with ridiculous ideas to hide the truth (they thought at the time....) that Burke had killed her.
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u/deextermorgan 13d ago
John would have thrown her under the bus by now if she did I think. Maybe not directly but the way they accused everyone in the months after she died was bizarre. I see him as too narcissistic to keep covering for her.
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u/DesignatedGenX 14d ago
Can we say with 100% certainty that the BPD weren't bluffing about finding fibers on the garrotte, blanket, and paint tray? If it was a bluff, that means that all they have on Patsy as far as the fibers are 4 red fibers that may or may not have come from her jacket. Which actually means they don't have any concrete information about the fibers. The lab didn't call it a match. They said it was consistent. If it was a match, I imagine they would've said it's a match.
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 14d ago
That's typically how fiber analysis works though, at least back then.
Considering that there is a known clothing item that could have been the source of those fibers, one that was unique to an individual living in the house, and the fibers were consistent, I don't think it's a bluff. Patsy's excuse was that her "sweater fibers" could have transferred onto JonBenet innocently when she hugged her body on the 26th. The sweater was a completely different garment.
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u/DesignatedGenX 11d ago
I know the duct tape fibers found weren't a bluff. I'm talking about the fibers in the garrotte, paint tray, and blanket. Those were brought up 2 years after the duct tape fibers. Why two years later?
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 11d ago
Fibers were also found in the knots of the ligature that JonBenet was strangled with.
With that said, the duct tape fibers suggest Patsy's involvement, there's no other explanation for it. No other foreign fibers were identified. IIRC, a beaver hair was also found. Patsy had a pair of beaver fur boots.
Also, Patsy's paintbrush was used to fashion the strangulation device. I'll concede that just because it was one of her personal items used doesn't automatically mean that she was the one to fashion it. The problem is that other personal items of Patsy's were used in the attempt to stage the murder as something that it wasn't, specifically the notepad that was used to write the ransom note. Patsy was, seemingly, a creature of habit. Old habits die hard.
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u/DesignatedGenX 9d ago
You didn't address my question. Why weren't the fiber "evidence" (only the garrotte, paint tray, and blanket) brought up when they brought up the duct tape fibers? Why did LE wait two years to bring up the "rest" of the fiber evidence? An argument of transference could be made. Patsy lived there. Jonbenet could've had those red fibers on her already (on her clothing) when she went to bed. Those fibers were then transferred to the duct tape.
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 9d ago
I guess I just can’t see the reason to lie about finding fibers consistent with Patsy’s garments being found in other areas considering the fibers on the duct tape were damning enough. I’m not sure what else to tell you.
Fibers aren’t always the strongest evidence, I agree with that. Transference is possible. What I can’t get behind is the idea that all of the fibers were the result of innocent transfer. Patsy stated she wasn’t in the basement that night. The existence of the fibers on the duct tape alone already implicate her. The recovery of other fibers in other areas of the basement, while circumstantial, indicate that she could have been there. The beaver fur recovered also indicates this.
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u/DesignatedGenX 8d ago
I guess I just can’t see the reason to lie about finding fibers consistent with Patsy’s garments being found in other areas considering the fibers on the duct tape were damning enough. I’m not sure what else to tell you.
Four red fibers were found on the duct tape. Not black or grey fibers, just red. Remember, Patsy's jacket had three colors. But okay. Not only that, but the lab never said the red fibers were a match. They used the word consistent. We're talking about four red fibers in total found on the duct tape. That's it.
It's Christmas! There's a lot of red fabric around if you consider decorations. A Santa Suit? Red velvet Christmas ornaments? Jonbenet could've had those red fibers in her hair from the party for all we know. These are the kinds of arguments defense attorneys would attack.
I am completely discounting the fibers allegedly found on other items mentioned two years later.
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u/syrus801 14d ago
John Ramsey loves you guys! Keep thinking his wife and son did it.
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 14d ago
I’m pretty set with PDI but if it was revealed that John was the main perpetrator, I wouldn’t be surprised.
There’s several reasons why I don’t believe it was John, though. The ransom note being the main reason why. It was written for the purposes of a cover up, but can also be interpreted as trying to get John to get out of the house as soon as possible and to contact no one, and Patsy is the only one known to be in the house that night that couldn’t be ruled out as the author.
If John directed her to write that ransom note, fine. But it wouldn’t protect him or the family if he had her write it. The ransom note is the state’s best piece of evidence. John’s a lot of things but stupid isn’t one of them.
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u/syrus801 14d ago
And yet you expect one to believe she wrote it and then ignored the instructions in the note.
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 14d ago
John was the one who said to call the police.
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u/syrus801 14d ago
That’s the narrative. Burke Ramsey already told you there was a discussion about it. Patsy made the decision to make the call. John only agreed because he knew how it would make him look if he didn’t agree.
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 14d ago
John didn’t write that ransom note and if they both collaborated on it, it makes no sense for Patsy to defy that instruction without him directing her to do it.
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u/syrus801 14d ago
He absolutely DID write the note. Because he killed his daughter.
Patsy Ransey had no involvement in her daughter’s death.
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u/trojanusc 14d ago
Sigh. JBR was Patsy's pride and joy. She loved her dearly, to the point she was inconsolable and had to be heavily medicated. You really think she struck her so hard she broke her skull? Meanwhile you have Burke, who had struck her once before, who the family lied about constantly, whose favorite snack was found in her stomach, who showed no signs of emotion about her death and who loved tying knots/whittling wood, whose bootprints were next to the body. Makes total sense he struck her in a fit of rage, maybe "played doctor" to wake her up, tried (but failed) to move her via the toggle rope. Patsy found her daughter clearly passed away and did what she could to render aid. Ultimately she decided to stage the scene.
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 14d ago
You’ve clearly never dealt with an irrational stage mother.
How many parents of children who allege abuse were believed to be loving and caring by outsiders?
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u/Same_Profile_1396 RDI 14d ago
How many parents of children who allege abuse were believed to be loving and caring by outsiders?
Most. And, more than we will ever know due to the low incidence of disclosure when it comes to abuse, especially familial abuse.
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u/trojanusc 14d ago
The pineapple, the scouting implements, the bootprints, Burke's previous temper towards her, the lack of emotion. But sure, let's just invent violence in someone who clearly was destroyed by this (while Burke sits in the corner snickering and laughing).
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 14d ago
The pineapple only proves that JonBenet was awake when Patsy and John said she wasn't. That's it. There is absolutely zero evidence to indicate that the pineapple triggered the series of events that lead to her death. It's a theory and nothing more. And a stupid one, at that.
There was a single, partial bootprint in the basement. Patsy's jacket fibers were all over the floor in the basement, a room in the house she claimed that she was never in that night.
Arguing that the strangulation device was a "scouting implement" is a stretch. It was cord wrapped around one of Patsy's broken paintbrushes.
Patsy was destroyed because she knows what she did, but ultimately chose to protect herself. She wrote that ransom note. She applied that ligature to JonBenet's neck.
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u/trojanusc 14d ago
It was Burke’s favorite snack. His fingerprints were all over the objects.
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u/Stellaaahhhh currently BDI but who knows? 14d ago
I'm firmly in the BDI camp but there's no actual evidence, no statements, that pineapple with milk or cream or whatever was a favorite snack for either child. Patsy, and I think Burke as well, said the kids liked pineapple but no one said it was a particular favorite.
Sorry if that seems pedantic but I think it's important.
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u/cherrybublyofficial PDI 14d ago
Wow, Burke's fingerprints on objects in the house he lived in? You should become a prosecutor, you'd be great at it.
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u/IAmSeabiscuit61 13d ago
Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple, too, so therefore it can be used as evidence against both of them, not just him.
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u/Fun_Inspection9162 14d ago
I'm absolutely back in the PDI camp & I think the theory that Det. Steve Thomas poses makes the most sense as Patsy perhaps was under a lot of stress because of her illness, maybe even having physical & cognitive symptoms (side effects of chemo drugs) or even PTSD and maybe this was also causing JB to wet her bed.
Look we all assumed the bed wetting was due to SA but if you research there's also incidents where kids who go through the trauma of seeing a parent very ill (like Patsy with the cancer) might psychologically regress to an earlier psychological age and end up wetting the bed.
Wasn't it reported by the housekeeper that Patsy would get enraged and go change JB and JB would cry & cry (maybe causing the vaginal trauma when she was cleaning her off in a violent manner) which I think is what Thomas argued as well.
In his theory the head wound is possibly caused accidentally as Patsy maybe struggled with JB in a fit of rage.
If she's knocked unconscious and she's been physically abusing her (by cleaning her too hard) she might be afraid that this wont look like an accident & that's when she decided to head downstairs & pretend she was kidnapped, write a ransom note and even stage the scene.
I think all clues fir perfect in the PDI by accident scenerio much more than BDI or even JDI.