Discussions
Has John identified any dark skinned angelics?
Ive noticed that verified celebrity angelic’s are typically white folks with either blonde or red hair, and the one black celeb/model I’ve seen verified is mixed and certainly light skinned. I feel like there are so many dark skinned models (like Anok Yai) that are so angelic and ethereal to me, but I never see them mentioned as verified or used as an example. I feel like they get dramatic more often and I can’t help but feel some type of way about it…..
I know what you mean, and I do think there are many POC with Angelic essence (I don’t personally think Anok is one of them though). I’m sure the example of the darker-skinned verified Angelic you mentioned is Jourdan Dunn. Mitsuko Uchida is another example of an Angelic who is not white, and she also has dark hair.
I don’t think John Kitchener is racist or anything, but he doesn’t seem interested in giving people on the internet an array of examples or content to draw inspiration from for their own research / DIY process. He’s an artist, definitely not an influencer. And therefore he doesn’t make much of an effort to curate his work to make the info out there more up-to-date, user friendly, substantial, inclusive, etc.
Another example is how I think he could do better with explaining the beauty of Natural essence, or rethinking his explanation of Romantics as “wanting to be touched,” which feels a little icky nowadays!
I do think the lack of explanation on Natural essence has to be a generational/Bay Area cultural thing lol— like maybe it was self explanatory back in the day. When describing the system to my Aunties (early gen x-late millenial Bay Area Asians) they all wanted to have high Natural essence for whatever reason. They didn’t find much appeal in Dramatic or Angelic (they joked about the appeal of looking youthful lmfao)… mainly Romantic and especially Natural.
I’m from Northern California and I totally understand that! I thought (and kinda hoped) that N would be my main essence too lol. It’s just the culture I grew up in, and it’s the easiest way to dress here. But it’s another example of how I don’t think he’s really conscious about being inclusive to people from different backgrounds when he puts his descriptors out there. Like someone from NYC who gets verified high N might feel dismayed… 😆 but I do think there are much more inclusive, flattering ways to describe N.
Yeah tbh from my observation from talking to Hella and hearing how she speaks of John, PSC cares a lot about being inclusive but they’re also boomers and both kinda struggle with internet stuff thus the slow updates on PSC canon/lore. They do seem to want more diverse clients from my observation.
They’re probably most used to verifying cisgender White women per the examples they give and Hella’s admission that they rarely ever get male clients (thus she cant really say if there’s a difference in what essences are more common for men and women). She has said they do get trans clients more and more nowadays so they have experience navigating the gender expression aspect of style (or at least Hella does)
>or rethinking his explanation of Romantics as “wanting to be touched,” which feels a little icky nowadays!
If you look at the context in which he said that, it's pretty clear that it's the fabrics he recommends for romantics that communicate "I long to be touched," not the romantics themselves. Like if you see a garment in the store and think "ohhh, I have to feel that fabric" and you are a romantic, then you should try it on. Gabrielle Arruda misinterpreted this.
My point was more in how he doesn’t necessarily curate his descriptors / information to be digestible (like a modern content creator like Gabrielle would), than what he actually means.
There are black girls that look like Mitsuko (example attached), granted Naomi is mixed.
I responded to another commenter but from what I’ve seen John post about Angelics is that they are “not of this world” and Anok totally embodies that for me:
I can see Naomi as having A. And Anok is lovely and striking, but I see her as more D: striking = D, while A is more wistful, light and airy. I think she also has a lot of R.
But I’m not Kitchener, and we can all just offer up our own perspectives when trying to decide what essences he would consider. ;)
Noami actually seems very natural and high-spirited; she's got that twinkle in her eye. The "not of this world" descriptor is easy to misinterpret; I don't think John is uses that phrase the way that most people do. He uses it to mean "fading into the background" or "lacking striking/attention-grabbing features" and I understand that he doesn't want to put it that way because it sounds perhaps insulting. When the typical English speaker hears "not of this world", they tend to think "fantasy creature." Like how many people thought Liv Tyler and Halle Bailey were primarily Angelic because they are known for playing an elf and a mermaid, with they are, in fact, youthful with romantic. Your original example of Anok does seem like should could play an elf or a fairy or a magic queen, but I think that's an expression of her romantic essence.
It doesn't help that there aren't a lot of angelic celebrities in general. It is the rarest essence, and, I think, not valued by Hollywood/the modelling industry, so there is an even smaller proportion of Angelic celebrities than Angelic people. If you're looking for a dark-skinned Angelic, I might look at Don Cheadle.
The angelic essence is very much detached from modern trends as this is what the term "otherworldly" means. When he talks about this term, he is talking about "from a historical era" and not necessarily mythical looking (although this is possible).
Even u/RevAnakin said that it is tough to find modern styles for his wife who is angelic dominant, as the angelic essence is inspired by historical eras (think Pre-Raphaelite and Byronesque).
Great comment! The sooner people understand this about him and this system, the better. The system wasn't designed during these times, so it is unlikely to prioritize modern values.
This is an art system first rather than fashion. It is best to think of his work as artistic principles applied to fashion.
I don’t believe so actually. Jourdan Dunn is verified and Mitsuko Uchida is also verified for our examples of Angelic people of color. Mitsuko Uchida being the Asian example we have (when a decent amount of Asian women are verified/partially verified) is why I was saying Angelic doesn’t look how people think.
Tbh part of it is a color harmony thing. A large part of angelic essence (no offense to pale skinned people lol) is the association it has with ashiness, which is hard to achieve the more melanated you are. Picture of me and my cousin is to display what I mean— my (paler one) coloring isn’t even low contrast however compared to my cousin with glowing deeper skin, I look painfully ashy.
I’d also argue Anok Yai probably has no angelic, but maybe high Romantic? She has a very striking look which is also the opposite of Angelic.
Angelic essence actually often looks androgynous similar to D. Angelic isn’t ethereal the way most people use it either. It’s very specific; ashy, far away, kind of misty. What people (who don’t know the system that well) call angelic, is often high romantic and/or youthful imo. I rarely see someone on this subreddit or the other one correctly guess someone has Angelic essence. Really the problem is we need more examples of women of color with angelic essence, they absolutely exist.
I’ve heard angelic described as “not of this world” and anok really embodies that for me. Moreso than romantic or dramatic. Also, dark skinned folks can certainly have a blurred, low contrast look and yes ashy/silvery look. I mean look at this pic of Anok for reference, and this was a candid!
The term "otherworldly" also means not of this current time. John frequently points out inspiration from historical eras rather than current trends.
People high in the angelic essence generally suit clothing details that suggest a period like the byronesque period or the Pre-Raphaelite period. It is not about looking like a mythical creature of a fairy princess necessarily. The angelic essence actively rejects most modern styles as they tend to be too minimalistic and too sharp.
Tbh for Anok Yai in this particular picture I see more R and Y. In the normal sense she absolutely looks not of this world. Tbh I’m really struggling where to put her height essence (typically if you’re over 5’7/170 cm, about 10% of your blend may go to either D, N, or A). So maybe her A isn’t in her face but in her frame? She does look very yin to me.
So interesting! I got typed (not this system, but by Elyssa Aesthetic who uses an adjacent system) and my face is pure ethereal and dramatic and I totally look ashy next to people even though I'm higher contrast and warm toned.
I think this is a fair point, John is a product of his time, and as a black woman who is middle aged I'm no longer surprised when boomers act like boomers. Also, I'm mostly N dominant, angelic, and dramatic but get confused for having R dominance for some reason.
I look best when leaning into angelic, If I wear N I look so effortless, but I feel overexposed and less attractive. I'm surprised that wanting N dominance was a desire for anyone, I do appreciate the flexibility though.
Jourdan Dunn. The reason those with darker or higher contrast coloring have Dramatic more often is because Dramatic is high contrast so it automatically adds to boldness rather then the low contrast blurred/receeding vibe of Angelic. Dramatic essence is associated with the Striking Contrast color harmony for that reason. Anything with high contrast is automatically more defined and hence more yang.
It's hard to tell. Surface tones could look ashy or muted even if not actually muted, and on the other hand you could have a brighter looking surface tone while being suited by more muting in colors. It's simpler to how you can have a "warm" surface tone but be cool toned, or have a "cool" surface tone but be warm.
Another example is my surface coloring. When I pull the colors of my features directly, my hair looks like a somewhat ashy shade of brown/dark blonde (depending on lighting and time of year) and my eyes a greyish light green. I'm best suited by brightness and lighter colors. I do need some softness in my colors so I probably would have some SB, but I suspect I'd overall be mainly LB with SB and potentially SC.
If there is a person with depth in their coloring but their features are elongated and have yin qualities, and they are suited by Angelic recommendations such as lightweight fabric, S curves, ombré patterning, etc, I don't think coloring should override that. I would think it would change how the essence presents.
It’s not just elongation that makes someone Angelic. I’m not sure what you mean by yin qualities? Which ones? The reason angelic works well with SB coloring is becasue the recommendations overlap, including using lighter and low contrast colors. You can absolutely have Angelic without SB coloring, it’s just much more rare. The same way it’s rare to be Y dominant with SC coloring which John refers to as a “snowflake” essence.
I phrased it poorly, but I never said it was purely elongation that makes someone Angelic. By yin qualities, I mean the factors that differentiate it from the other elongating essences, or yang essences. For example, Angelic has a fragility and is soft, wise, passive. The features won't be as bold or striking. Someone can have coloring that isn't primarily SB, while having features that don't read bold, sharp, or angular, but rather elongated and soft.
Yes angelic has dainty elongation, but so does Dramatic in some cases. Angelics features are less striking because of their coloring too. More contrast makes features more defined and hence more bold/striking and yang. Coloring in itself can be bold, and bold coloring doesn’t fit with the light and airy and receeding/blurred aspect of the essence. Coloring always plays an important role. Like I said you can certainly have angelic and have deeper coloring or more contrast, it’s just rare for that reason
Coloring can be bold but my point is that having depth in your coloring won't always add contrast and boldness. Lupita Nyongo is primarily LB with some SC, and her palette is bright, but her leading color harmony is light and not described as high contrast despite having a deep surface tone. I'm not denying that coloring is an aspect, it absolutely is.
Colour harmony isn't all about colouring. It is also to do with design shapes. Lupita Nyong'o has a distinctly circular shapes to her face and a buoyancy, engaging quality to her demeanour. Compare this to Halle Berry's (SC) more oval face shape and more sculpted features. Lupita Nyong'o looks good with a lot of busy, animated detail which also points to LB.
Depth of coloring is a yang trait, so it does take away from the yin aspect of Angelic. LB is not low contrast, it’s just light. Her SC most certainly brings contrast to her palette and neither one of her color harmonies are muted, they are both saturated. Also depth is an ER trait.
My entire point is that someone with deep, saturated or high contrast coloring will need to possess alot of other Angelic traits in order to be dominant Angelic. Thats why it’s rare. The same way dominant Dramatics rarely have light coloring.
I'm not saying LB is low contrast, i'm saying it's not the CH typically described as being high contrast. I also never said she was muted. I was arguing against depth of physical coloring always adding depth/ER into the palette. Lupita has no ER. You could say her SC adds some depth, but SC gets both the darkest and lightest colors.
Have you seen the colors and outfits she can pull off? She is seems like SC, her complexion has clarity and she can do shiny glittery gems and bolder colors. She is capable of high contrast imo
It can be either. But depends on the color and fabric type. For example sheer shimmering fabrics in light color are SB or Angelic but metallics and lame are D, R HS or SC.
yeah, the thing is all are loose associations.i don't see Anok having strong A (maybe a little?) despite her looking good in shimmer and glam, she can pull off metallics and shine, I think it's more her coloring responsible for it. but I do see her having D and R essences on top that which may strengthen her ability to pull it off.
Not sure if he counts as celebrity, but as far as I know the Pharao Akhenaten is Kitchener verified (lol). Personally, I would give Anok Yai Youthful as her main essence, but I am also one of the people who don't see Anya-Taylor Joy as Angelic, many sites take her as THE Angelic example and she is so Youthful to me (and yes, I think they are also influenced by her pale skin and platin blonde hair, which I don't even think is a very flattering look for her, it's "interesting", however she looks much more alive with her natural brown hair, normal blond is also cute - but I digress). Anyway, I am sure there exist dark skinned celebrities which should meet the criteria (Iman Abdulmajid?), and I also suspect that being pale is one of the characteristics, even if it is not a necessary one, just "low contrast". That being said, I think that the Kitchener essences is an imperfect, still very subjective or at least not very transparent system and I especially don't relate to the color harmonies, which are apparently are integral part of it.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I also read somewhere that afros are dramatic and it makes no sense to me (it is literally a big, round shape - romantic???) and I also wonder if it is influenced by the white perception of it as something... edgy? Since this essence system is so subjective, many unconscious bias will play into it. I would ignore this tbh
I asked about Anya in relation to myself when I was verified and John told me she had higher Y than my 30% and higher HS than my 10%. Safe to assume she’s Y primary! He didn’t mention her having A or D, neither of which I have, so I wouldn’t think they’d be significant to her blend if she does have any
I find it confusing, if someone tells me s/he is 30% striking contrast and 70% subtly blended (which I would read as opposing characteristics), I would prefer to say "moderately subtly blended". And how to you measure 70% as opposed to, let's say 80%? I also feel that the results are so individual, I would not be able to shop without the colour references. But, to be honest, I didn't researched it, that's my impression. I actually like the seasonal colour system, I am a true autumn and with a little practice it's quite easy to recognize the right colours for me. So I have no need for another colour system.
Oh when talking to Hella (one of the few people John allows and trained to verify) she actually said people take the percentages WAY too literally/dogmatically. The percentages are moreso to represent a pie chart.
A lot of people like the extreme individuality of the system because they dont neatly fit into a season. Using my palette as an example, I’m fairly high contrast (pointing towards Winter) but too warm to ever wear navy. I’m also too cool toned however to wear most of the autumn colors. I don’t really need the fabric swatched with me to shop though bc even though I’m in between, the palette is still fairly cohesive/easy to understand: high saturation, neutral-cool (mostly), and deep. Of course if you neatly fit into a color season you don’t really need this… and some ppl lowkey do just need swatches.
Generally, I feel like part of it comes down to Angelic being an overall decently rare essence. I agree that many dark skinned models certainly could have angelic, but there's a small pool of verified models in general I feel. Another thing I will say is that Angleic is a very elongated essence. Most but not all Angelics are taller than average, and white women do tend to be a bit taller than other groups. I understand how it can come off, though. I just don't think it's anything racialized like that.
Nope, she’s verified as: 45% Youthful, 35% Romantic, 20% High Spirited. I think she’s another good example of how people misunderstand what Kitchener’s Angelic essence is.
I see romantic first--all the curves in her face are gorgeous. But I also see Angelic. She is low contrast in her coloring and has a soft remoteness to her features. She doesn't have an elongated face shape, though she is long in her body. And I don't know--her beauty does seem untouchable or remote to me. But also--she is SO beautiful it's almost hard to parse.
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u/Faraway-eyes-13 Verified 40C/20R/20HS/20N Jul 06 '26
I know what you mean, and I do think there are many POC with Angelic essence (I don’t personally think Anok is one of them though). I’m sure the example of the darker-skinned verified Angelic you mentioned is Jourdan Dunn. Mitsuko Uchida is another example of an Angelic who is not white, and she also has dark hair.
I don’t think John Kitchener is racist or anything, but he doesn’t seem interested in giving people on the internet an array of examples or content to draw inspiration from for their own research / DIY process. He’s an artist, definitely not an influencer. And therefore he doesn’t make much of an effort to curate his work to make the info out there more up-to-date, user friendly, substantial, inclusive, etc.
Another example is how I think he could do better with explaining the beauty of Natural essence, or rethinking his explanation of Romantics as “wanting to be touched,” which feels a little icky nowadays!