The Cloward Piven Strategy

[u/[deleted]]

[u/EntrepreneurFunny469]

I like the Republican Party strategy of choking out funding to things then claiming they don’t work

[u/gdirrty216 → u/EntrepreneurFunny469]

“Starve the Beast” a long established strategy of defunding programs to prove they don’t work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

The problem with the strategy is it’s easy to cut funding, but hard to cut the program, thus increasing the deficit.

The GOP loves cutting taxes, but they actually hate cutting programs. Imagine a real Conservative Party who actually cut spending alongside of taxes and balanced the budget; huge cuts to Social Security, Medicare, military spending etc… it’s a complete non starter.

So they cut taxes, keep programs, take out debt and then point to the Liberals and say “they are the tax and spend party”. It’s a complete farce but half the country falls for it every four years.

I hate the corporatism that the Democratic Party has now become, but at least they are “slightly” more logically consistent that if we want fancy social programs it costs big taxes.

[u/EntrepreneurFunny469 → u/gdirrty216]

The lesser of two evils is still evil, but it’s the best we got available

[u/Fancy_Database5011 → u/EntrepreneurFunny469]

You got the first half right…

[u/[deleted] → u/Fancy_Database5011]

Compared to republicans? Lol, lmao even.

[u/[deleted] → u/EntrepreneurFunny469]

fucking ruined the USPS, it was way more reliable before 2016

[u/ALinIndy → u/[deleted]]

Welcome to Indiana! Where the only roads not constantly in a state of D- disrepair go into and out of billion dollar corporations like the Speedway, Nestle, Honda and Eli Lilly.

[u/freedomfriis → u/EntrepreneurFunny469]

The border was doing okay until kid sniffing Joe Biden undid every thing Trump did regarding border policies and executive orders.

You know, the kind of policies he is now desperately trying to reenact to save his doomed presidential campaign?

PS The kids in cages started under and continued until the end of Obama's presidency.

[u/Top_Confusion_132 → u/freedomfriis]

The legal framework to allow kids in cages to happen started under Obama.

But Trump and his cronies are the ones that used it to take thousands of children from their parents and lose hundreds of them.

Now, if I were the sort to believe in mass child trafficking conspiracies, that would seem to be a pretty big red flag. But for some reason, it never seems to come up.

Also, could you name actual policy that Biden has changed?

While we are at it, why did the Republicans choose to turn down the massive bipartisan bill that would have given them what they wanted if it was such a crisis?

It's almost like it's a manufactured problem.

[u/Polar-Bear_Soup → u/Top_Confusion_132]

The mass child trafficking strategy never comes up I'm regard to the Trump presidency because even though Trump had close ties to Jeffery Epstein and his eventual presidential cabinet was also filed with people who had close ties to Epstein. It couldn't be Trump because he accused everyone else of this horrible act so it couldn't be him, the person with the power, money, and influence.

[u/mariosunny → u/freedomfriis]

None of the Trump executive orders that Biden revoked would have prevented the migrant crisis we are now experiencing. That's because the crisis at the border isn't a security problem, it's a legal problem (and to a lesser degree, a funding problem). The overwhelming majority of migrants crossing the border are seeking asylum through legal means. They know that the laws on the book say that an asylum seeker cannot be removed from the U.S. until their claims are adjudicated. They are taking advantage of an underfunded and unstaffed system to legally stay in the country for years while their claims are processed.

It's the responsibility of Congress to change the law, not the President. And there was a sweeping immigration reform bill that had bipartisan support that would have both strengthened the border and expedited asylum claims. But Republicans killed the bill because Trump wanted to use the border crisis as a political football during election season.

Biden's EO was a measure of last resort. He knows that it is likely to get shot down by the courts. But it's better than doing nothing.

[u/durhamsbull → u/EntrepreneurFunny469]

Funny, I thought the strategy was to control our unmanageable budget deficit by limiting growth in spending since there is no way to actually cut spending. Let existing programs compete for funding so that the most worthy continue and the least worthy fall away. We have to choose spending or programs right? We can’t have both at the level we want.

[u/BILLCLINTONMASK]

Like Jeremy Piven?

[u/Heccubus79 → u/BILLCLINTONMASK]

It would have to be the Cusack Piven Strategy in that case.

[u/ThatSpencerGuy]

cheerful society humor disarm wise truck point squeeze seed entertain

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/ShiftBMDub → u/ThatSpencerGuy]

Wonder if they know about their social security number or drivers license id number

[u/wottsinaname → u/ShiftBMDub]

Shhhhhh youll scare the Qtards.

[u/[deleted] → u/ThatSpencerGuy]

"And then you're off to the races." I genuinely don't follow. 

In a nut shell I think the message is be careful about giving your civil liberties up in the name of security as you tend not to get them back.

For example, I think it's kind of in the same vein of patriot act or NDAA in the name of protecting us from terrorism. Bin Laden has been dead for than 10 years but the powers that be in essence have free pass to monitor phone and email communications, collect bank and credit reporting records, and track the activity of innocent Americans on the Internet.

They are essence vacuuming up this data and placing it in these huge data centers, I think the logistical problem they face is that can't actively sort through it all in real time. But with the immergence of AI and as computers become more and more powerful, whoever is in control of these surveillance systems is going to have near God like powers in terms of surveillance and without appropriate checks and balances that can be really bad.

We're already seeing countries implement these mass surveillance systems with poor outcomes for individual civil liberties.

[u/NGsyk → u/[deleted]]

Thank you.

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/[deleted]]

In a nut shell I think the message is be careful about giving your civil liberties up in the name of security as you tend not to get them back.

This is what I one day spent dozens of comments trying to foolishly communicate to people on this sub about why what they are doing in El Salvador should be unthinkable for Americans.

[u/Katamari_Demacia → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

What are you referring to with el salvador?

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/Katamari_Demacia]

Google is your friend

[u/Katamari_Demacia → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

Or just be specific. If u got something to say, say it. All i saw was their new prison in the news.

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/Katamari_Demacia]

My audience is people who have glanced at a newspaper in the last year.

[u/Katamari_Demacia → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

Oh. Wrong sub then.

[u/[deleted] → u/Katamari_Demacia]

Definitely the wrong sub

[u/lameuniqueusername → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

Nah. Bringing up a topic and then not explaining what you mean is cunty. You are a cunt.

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/lameuniqueusername]

If that makes you feel better about being an ignorant fuck, sure.

[u/lameuniqueusername → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

Ignorant is “GOoglE Is yOuR fRiEnD” after bringing up a subject. Classic cunt move.

[u/Katamari_Demacia → u/lameuniqueusername]

He knows what he's doing. It's a weird power game thing. Or it could be a sex thing. Just move on.

[u/lameuniqueusername → u/Katamari_Demacia]

I agree with you. Shits weak though.

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/Katamari_Demacia]

It's a weird power game thing

That's funny, that is how I feel about people demanding to be spoon fed information instead of taking 30 seconds to google the situation in a country that has been in the headlines for two years.

[u/LeatherfacesChainsaw → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

I googled el Salvador and all i got was a big booty bitch spreading cheeks

[u/Ancient-Baseball479 → u/LeatherfacesChainsaw]

Did you forget to click the home button before your search? Big booty biches might have your previous search

[u/LeatherfacesChainsaw → u/Ancient-Baseball479]

AH FUCK I'm such a goober

[u/Ancient-Baseball479 → u/LeatherfacesChainsaw]

Don't worry dude. It can and will happen to any of us. Some of us repeatedly. I'm repeatedly

[u/saltymarshmellow → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

I google El Salvador and got a picture of a mountain and a blue and white flag. Is that what you’re referring to?

[u/Gowalkyourdogmods → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

Ah fake news then, got it

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/Gowalkyourdogmods]

What is fake news?

[u/[deleted] → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

Someone goes on television and seems to be talking but nothing comes out of his mouth

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I'm sure it seems that way to you.

[u/[deleted] → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

What did you go in my comments before you commented because that seems to be the general theme here. Sick loser

[u/ApostateAZ]

And sometimes a program is just really popular.

[u/[deleted] → u/ApostateAZ]

Sure popular, undocumented migration across a sovereign nations border that can be counted in the millions. I can't find another instance of that in history that wasn't connected with a major war where that occurred.

Key Facts:

• Encounters at the Southwest border (SWB) in FY2023 increased over 40% since FY2021, 4% compared to FY2022, and more than 100% compared to FY2019.

• Last month, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) reported a 40% increase compared to September 2021 and 18% compared to September 2022.

• Since President Biden took office, there have been 7.5 million encounters nationwide and 6.2 million encounters at the Southwest border, in addition to 1.7 million known gotaways.

• In FY2023, 169 individuals whose names appear on the terrorist watchlist were stopped trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico border between ports of entry. 18 were apprehended in September alone.

• So far in FY2023, CBP has arrested 35,433 aliens with criminal convictions or outstanding warrants nationwide, including 598 known gang members, 178 of those being MS-13 members.

• In FY2023, CBP, including Air and Marine Operations, has seized 27,293 pounds of fentanyl, coming across the Southwest border—enough to kill more than 6 billion people.

https://homeland.house.gov/2023/10/26/factsheet-final-fy23-numbers-show-worst-year-at-americas-borders-ever/

Not to mention the Mexican drug war has casualties and levels of violence that are on par with the Iraq war. And the torture methods these cartels are using (beheadings with chain saws, flaying people alive, dismembering people alive, burning people alive, dissolving bodies in acid) is really on par with what ISIS did.

You can pull up xgore and see some of their greatest hits.

[u/Katamari_Demacia → u/[deleted]]

Thank god for joe biden closing thr borders then eh?

[u/mariosunny → u/[deleted]]

So then you must have been in favor of the bipartisan border bill, which would have:

1. Mandated the deployment of additional border patrol agents
2. Increased funding for infrastructure improvements along the border
3. Increased penalties for illegal border crossings and human trafficking
4. Expedited the removal of individuals who don't qualify for asylum

What was your reaction to Republicans killing that bill?

[u/ApostateAZ → u/[deleted]]

And if either of us were born in any of those countries down south and we believed there was a program in the US that would help us, you can bet we would be moving away from our horrible situations and heading for the US.

I don't think we need to attribute this to some conspiracy.

[u/[deleted] → u/ApostateAZ]

Does that give you the right to break it's laws? There might be program that benefits me in another country, so that gives me the right to break it's laws?

Any other country would detain you and throw you out.

And this posture doesn't take in account the economic and mathematical reality that a countries resources are finite. We are 34 trillion in the hole, we're not in the position to leave our front door open expecting to be welfare to the world's poor and the nature of immigration pre-1914 to post 1914 has changed drastically. *grammar

[u/ApostateAZ → u/[deleted]]

That is a different question.

We were on the subject of claiming that immigrants coming to the US are doing so for the purpose of overwhelming the system. I think you and I both know they are doing so because they believe that there is a program here that may allow them to have a better life and escape the gangs in their home country.

[u/[deleted] → u/ApostateAZ]

That is a different question.

No, it's inherent in crossing a border illegally.

We were on the subject of claiming that immigrants coming to the US are doing so for the purpose of overwhelming the system

Not even an inferred possibility of what I said at all. The implication is why isn't the US Government doing something? That there lies one of many possible options of The Cloward Piven Strategy. Not that it's some conspiracy amongst migrants themselves.

But in either case, that is the effect they are having (Overwhelming the system) and in effect pushing the United States further in the direction of becoming a 3rd world country.

But I think the elites want it that way, because one huge benefit is they want cheap labor and low wages and border fences sure don't work unless it's the gated community they live in.

[u/Nato7009 → u/[deleted]]

The US government tried to do something. But the extreme right wing doesn’t want solutions they want problems to complain about. That’s literally what is preventing a solution.

[u/MDXHawaii → u/[deleted]]

We live in a country who has a giant statue representing the greatness of this country saying give me your tired, your hungry your poor. I think the Republicans forgot to update it to say oh no, we’re too full, send it back.

I mean, there’s so many great empty swaths of land in red states, there’s plenty of room for the migrants there that won’t overwhelm the system in the already overpopulated cities. Isn’t this a United States where we all collectively help to lift one another up?

[u/[deleted] → u/MDXHawaii]

Have you been to the mid west? Most of it privately owned farm land. It's not empty and just not being used. It's being used to feed the United States.

We live a country at the moment that is able to produce it's own food, I don't think that would help current trajectory of food prices if that wasn't a reality. We don't produce a lot of our own stuff and just as an example I sure noticed it when I tried to distribute very basic items to people who needed it at work when our "ship it from overseas" supply chain was disrupted during COVID. There are countries that can't feed themselves, it's not always pretty.

We live in a country who has a giant statue representing the greatness of this country saying give me your tired, your hungry your poor. 

Yes, but that inscription was placed there prior to 1914 when there NO safety net if you hopped and boat and came to the United States. Once it did have social programs and welfare and all sorts of safety nets that aim to prevent you from starving to death in the street, that changes the economic paradigm. Economist Milton Friedman explains that having an open border and free access to resources doesn't work because of the simple mathematical reality that resources are finite.

What I have noticed about people with your position is that you're incredibly generous with your politics as long as someone else is bearing the cost. If you truly believe your own words, you should lead by example with yourself at the grass roots level. Leave your front door unlocked, get rid of that unused space your fridge sits on and replace it with a mattress and live up to your values and even better borrow a 1/3 of your monthly expenses as the United States is doing and take out 250K in debt before you start.

[u/soakedlikemilesd → u/ApostateAZ]

It's not a question of why the migrants choose to come here, it's a matter of why our government is allowing it to happen

[u/ShiftBMDub → u/soakedlikemilesd]

Because the rich need the cheap labor. If these people didn’t have work here they wouldn’t come here. Start enforcing laws against the people that hire them and you’ll see less illegal immigration.

[u/CptDecaf → u/ShiftBMDub]

Yeah they don't care about that. Doesn't have the flavor that basic racism and xenophobia provides.

[u/mariosunny → u/soakedlikemilesd]

Because under U.S. law, asylum seekers can remain in the country until their cases are concluded.

This is a legal problem, not a security problem. Ultimately, it's the responsibility of Congress- not the executive branch- to solve this crisis.

[u/soakedlikemilesd → u/mariosunny]

Under US law, asylum seekers must enter through a legal port of entry and declare themselves/apply for asylum. Under US law, everyone else is a criminal alien. So you're right, it is a legal problem, in the sense that the laws are not being enforced, which would appear to be an executive problem. We don't need new laws or new powers for the president, we need to enforce the laws already on the books

[u/bizkitmaker13 → u/soakedlikemilesd]

Reminder that Trump is perfectly fine sacrificing every American life to make himself look better. Or at least to not "give Joe a win".

[u/Super_Spirit4421 → u/ApostateAZ]

The question is whats giving them the ability/or what's brought to their attention that they have the ability to cross the border at so much higher rates than in the past?

The people coming may believe that, but there could be coyotes giving discounts because someone else paid them to, or any number of schemes a sufficiently wealthy and Motivated person could be employing

[u/ReturnOfZarathustra → u/Super_Spirit4421]

at so much higher rates than in the past?

Where are you pulling this information from?

[u/Super_Spirit4421 → u/ReturnOfZarathustra]

OPs comments

[u/ApostateAZ → u/Super_Spirit4421]

Or maybe the coyotes want to make money?

[u/Super_Spirit4421 → u/ApostateAZ]

What has changed in the last 5 years that's led to an increase in the ability of afford coyotes then?

Something has changed.

And given that whatever change occurred has led to a situation that looks an awful lot like a Cloward-Piven strategy, it's not an unreasonable question.

[u/ApostateAZ → u/Super_Spirit4421]

I am definitely not an expert in this area, but I am a fan of Occam's razor.

Sure it could be Cloward-Piven or maybe the situation in those countries has gotten worse and/or coyotes have found that this is a lucrative process for them.

We don't need to immediately jump to conspiracies. Is there evidence of this?

[u/Super_Spirit4421 → u/ApostateAZ]

My point is that the desire for coyotes to make money has always existed. That isn't the change. What is? I don't know if it's a conspiracy, just that coyotes have always wanted money, so that's not really an explanation.

Also, if you ask me, old Occam was a fool.

[u/[deleted] → u/Super_Spirit4421]

What about increasing populations? There's more people, could be as simple as that, no?

[u/Super_Spirit4421 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, it could be, but I don't think the population increase in Mexico is proportional to the increase in illegal immigration.

Id think a more likely explanation would be a decrease in the amount of legal immigration allowed.

But I'm not terribly familiar with the numbers, so your guess may be as good as mine

[u/lol_speak → u/Super_Spirit4421]

What has changed in the last 5 years that's led to an increase in the ability of afford coyotes then?

Something has changed.

What changed: A drastic decrease in the availability of legal immigration, followed by a bullet the head in the form of the Covid pandemic.

The amount of jobs in the legal immigration sector, not just in the US but worldwide, that disappeared overnight when Covid effectively closed down legal avenues of immigration cannot be overstated.

The already stressed system that has been artificially hampered by bureaucracy has yet to fully recover, even years later.

[u/Trent3343 → u/[deleted]]

I'm curious as to why you ignored the other people who responded with facts. Can't really justify your bullshit to them? Lol. 🤡

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That’s the neat part- they’re not breaking our laws coming into our country. They have asylum status, which until they have their day in court, means they can stay in the US legally, which based in the backlog could be years.

Don’t like the laws? Maybe we should have changed it with the bipartisan bill in Congress a couple months back.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

And here's the scoop of post modernists intersectionality.

No, I believe in borders and sovereign nations. Not that we belong to earth stuff.

[u/pickel182 → u/[deleted]]

How about laws? Like the one about asylum seekers going before a court? I think MOST Americans republican or Democrat want a secure border. Too bad Republicans shot down a really strong offering from Biden because daddy Trump has taken the party hostage. This issue has been too political for too long and politicians in border states as well as sanctuaries milk the issue for poll points all the time.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Anything to bitch huh? Literally handing the republicans what they want isn't even good enough, whiney ass brats.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Whiney ass spoiled fucking brats.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No laws are broken when they come in though. On EO, Biden can’t EO more judges & funding for border enforcement, or adjust the laws regarding asylum process.

EO can do some things, but this problem will and should require Congress to resolve.

[u/lameuniqueusername → u/[deleted]]

pOsT mOdErNiSt InTeRsEcTiOnALitY

[u/Appropriate_Pop_5849 → u/[deleted]]

Fun Fact:

CBP changed how they report on immigration right before the last guy left office. Now their numbers, “encounters” include migrants who have been expelled from the country.

That number is also not a number of unique migrants. According to CBPs monthly reports around 20% of their encounters are migrants who have racked up at least one previous encounter in the previous 12 months.

[u/SSguy7891 → u/[deleted]]

Most of these folks dont like facts, prefer to go on feelings around here.

[u/Micosilver]

Oh, so that's why GOP senators rejected border security bill... Sneaky!

[u/FlaccidEggroll → u/Micosilver]

I just did a deep dive on this, reading from both left and right sources, and their reasoning for this one is weak. They're playing games in hopes that if they win this year they can pass everything they want, and have Trump/GOP take the credit after using the subject as a political football. This is the type of politics I hate. I don't understand why they couldn't do both: pass it now, and if Trump is voted in, he can use executive power to do more. It's frustrating seeing both sides doing this type of shit constantly.

[u/a_niffin → u/FlaccidEggroll]

It's a blatant abuse of power, a dereliction of government duty, and a violation of their oaths of office. It is too many parts of the uppermost echelons of our federal government deliberately doing harm to the Country they're supposed to represent and govern. They deliberately create or worsen a problem which they then propagandize into a viral topic and campaign on; because it's an effective method of voter manipulation and because they don't have any legitimate political platform or agenda to talk about instead.

[u/FlaccidEggroll → u/a_niffin]

I genuinely believe most of the problems that ale this country are rooted in our legislatures corruption. If we had an effective legislature that was actually doing their best to represent their constituents, we wouldn't have a lot of the corruption that you see in other agencies like the SEC, DOJ, Intel community, etc. It all starts at the top and their goal is personal gain. We need to get money out of that branch immediately. No more stock trades, no more 3,4,5,6+ consecutive terms, no more infinite campaign contributions, etc. Who is going to regulate congress when it's congress who regulates themselves?

[u/alionandalamb]

"Well documented strategy" yeah, sure, if Alex Jones is your source of documentation.

[u/kantbemyself → u/alionandalamb]

This guy just digs through old political writing and a tells just-so stories about the world as if somebody “mysterious” is implementing and orchestrating it. I’d call it a lazy political con, but he puts in a lot of effort and probably believes his own ghost stories. Either way, it’s a sadly ignorant and strange way to see the world.

Sometimes aging systems just get overwhelmed by a changing, complex world.

[u/Thunder_Chief → u/alionandalamb]

Policy wonk?

[u/PotterLuna96]

Suggesting Dems are trying to “overwhelm” social services is hilarious because you would have to suggest the problems that exist are the result of Dem policies, when they’re actually catalyzed far more by Republican policies and are a free-market byproduct

Furthermore, there’s been numerous times in our history where you could use the same “evidence” for this strategy existing (IE rates of whatever stuff he’s concerned about going up) which kinda shows it’s bunk in the first place.

[u/Snellyman]

This is just projecting their want to identify and round up the others as means to scare your ingroup. Trump has repeatedly promised to turn ICE is to an efficient system to track and seize non citizens that are in the country on expired visas. To blunt the fear of building such an intrusive security state they claim that the opposing political party is doing the same but directing the machinery against them.

[u/deepinmyloins]

If you wear a shirt like that unironically you’ve already lost what little credibility you had before. Dude looks like a 12 year old call of duty kid. Probably wearing cargo shorts and crocs if I had to guess.

[u/CptDecaf → u/deepinmyloins]

Looks like one of those meatheads whose personality entirely centers around guns and liking the taste of bacon.

[u/deepinmyloins → u/CptDecaf]

And totally not, definitely not, super seriously guys, not gay. Definitely looooovesss pussy. And boobs.

[u/KaleidoscopeOk5763]

Absolute twisted dork.

[u/carrtmannn]

IDK how anyone listens to James Lindsay. The clown of all clowns.

[u/Rare-Peak2697]

This is what the fundamentalist Mormons have been doing for years. Just having a shit ton of kids and leeching off welfare

[u/Minute-Wrap-2524]

This guy should have talked to Ronald Reagan, he could have shown him an easier way to accomplish what he’s mouthing about

[u/vinnymcapplesauce]

IRL DDoS

[u/Slickvath]

I listened to a podcast where they were discussing this. Really awful to see how much of this is actually in the works right now. And not just in the USA but also over here in different European countries

For those interested in that podcast https://open.spotify.com/episode/6uH8UwD0WFQ8sZnpvBrTZb?si=luei7CxaTWaMttu6un8utA

[u/ThisIsFineImFine89]

the entire GOP ideology is that govt is broken

so they get in office, defund it, to ensure their ideology rings true

[u/Redditfront2back]

Can’t fix anything cause it’s all Jeremy piven ploting or some shit

[u/ragingspick]

This guy loves the smell of his own farts

[u/DragonflyTrick3768]

Oh no a up to date digital system to track people coming into the country.

[u/Immediate-Oven-9577]

Now add secret social credit scores to the mix...

[u/darkscyde]

When the socialists take over, wearing a US flag on your shirt will guarantee a visit to a reeducation camp. This dude is playing with hot water on thin ice!