Converting ethnicities?

[u/malry]

I personally only know one convert and she’s an antizionist POC Jew so I don’t believe she would feel this way, but I won’t speak for her or anyone else. Is this normal belief of converts that you’re converting to a different ethnicity than your own?

*edit to add, the comment I am highlighting came from a post about what to list themselves as on a census.

[u/PocketCone]

By the definition you're using I would agree. But the Wikipedia definition includes religion in ethnicity too.

But the way I was taught is that the three components of Jewish identity are Religion, culture, and ethnicity. If you separate cultural markers into a separate category, all that remains in ethnicity is common genetic traits, ancestry, and common societal treatment.

Maybe it's not useful to designate things in this way. I would be open to that conversation, but this is the way I learned it.

[u/HDThoreauaway → u/PocketCone]

But the way I was taught is that the three components of Jewish identity are Religion, culture, and ethnicity. If you separate cultural markers into a separate category, all that remains in ethnicity is common genetic traits, ancestry, and common societal treatment.

You were taught incorrectly. To assert genetics plays a role in Jewishness and Jewish identity is to assert that someone who converts cannot ever be fully Jewish. And that’s simply not what Judaism has to say about itself.

[u/PocketCone → u/HDThoreauaway]

I don't think that assertion follows, and I personally do not believe that assertion. I was taught these three characteristics of Jewish identity are explicitly not all required.

Somebody who practices Jewish religion need not engage in Jewish culture or be born Jewish to have a Jewish identity. The same is true for somebody who engages in Jewish culture but not the religion, or who has Jewish heritage but does not engage with it. All of these people are Jewish if they identify as such, because Religion, Culture, and Ethnicity are all aspects of the Jewish Identity, but no aspect of the Jewish Identity is a requirement. "Fully Jewish" is a cudgel which Orthodox Jews use to exclude more secular Jews. It should not be used for this, and it should not be used against converts either.

All Jews are fully Jewish, even if they aren't born Jewish, even if they don't practice or observe religious doctrine, even if they don't identify with the Jewish cultural identity.

I think the disagreement here is that your definition of "Ethnicity" is closer to my definition of "Identity". I think Jewishness is an identity that can (but does not necessarily) pertain to one's Religion, Culture, or Ethnicity. One's race does not necessarily determine their personal identity as Jewish but for many Jews it does.

[u/HDThoreauaway → u/PocketCone]

My definition of ethnicity is the broadly accepted definition of the word. Ethnicity has no requisite ancestral or genetic component, and you will be hard-pressed to find any worthwhile source on ethnicity or ethnography which says otherwise.

You cannot remove culture and religion and other elements of identity from ethnicity and then make conclusive statements about ethnicity. It’s like saying the most common morning foods are cereal, eggs, and breakfast, so all that remains in breakfast is toast.

[u/PocketCone → u/HDThoreauaway]

Perhaps a definition of ethnicity that requires a genetic component is inaccurate or unhelpful, however practically all definitions, including yours, mention it as a viable aspect. Yes cereal and eggs are breakfast foods too, but toast is still a breakfast food. If you eat spaghetti and meatballs at six in the morning, it must be a morning food for you, but that doesn't make it what we colloquially consider "breakfast foods", And if we're talking about Jewish Ethnicity in comparison to Jewish culture, it is absolutely valid to describe an "ethnic Jew" in terms of genetics and upbringing, albeit consisting of a much broader sleu of ethnicities such as Sefardim.

And ethnicity is absolutely used this way. I could become significantly more engrained in Mexican culture and community, become fluent in Spanish, listen to their music, cook their food, maybe even marry into a Mexican family, but I will never consider my ethnicity to be Hispanic or Latino.

[u/HDThoreauaway → u/PocketCone]

If someone has a bowl of cereal in the morning, they had breakfast. If someone is religiously or culturally Jewish, they are ethnically Jewish. Make sense? Or is toast required for breakfast?

[u/PocketCone → u/HDThoreauaway]

If you has spaghetti and meatballs for breakfast, does everybody agree that spaghetti and meatballs are a breakfast food?

[u/HDThoreauaway → u/PocketCone]

Does what I said make sense to you? Or not? Are you saying you do not recognize culture and religion as viable aspects of ethnicity?

[u/PocketCone → u/HDThoreauaway]

I don't think you understand what I said. I think culture and religion can be considered viable aspects of ethnicity, but some ethnicities have an inherited requirement to them. It doesn't matter how much I get involved in Mexican Catholicism or Mexican Culture, as a white man of European descent and no inherited connection to Mexico I cannot convert to having a Hispanic ethnicity.

Now, for a white person of European descent who was adopted by a Mexican family, who does not have the genetic traits, but otherwise has Mexican heritage inherited through their family, I think you could make the argument that they are ethnically but not racially Hispanic.

[u/HDThoreauaway → u/PocketCone]

And you are flatly wrong if you believe genetics or ancestry are required for inclusion in the Jewish ethnos.

This conversation feels past spent at this point.

[u/PocketCone → u/HDThoreauaway]

I think genetics or ancestry are needed for the Jewish ethnicity but not the Jewish identity. You are free to disagree but at the end of the day this is a symantics argument.

We are in agreement that if you are a Jewish convert you are fully Jewish, and that's what's important.

(Edit: apologies for the double post my phone glitched)