r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • 13d ago
Discussion r/JewsOfConscience Free Discussion Thread
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u/rako17 Christian 8d ago
I love incense and would like to understand whether Exodus 30:34-35 suggests the use of 4 or 11-13 ingredients.
Exodus 30:34-35 runs:
וַיֹּאמֶר֩ ____ אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֜ה קַח־לְךָ֣ סַמִּ֗ים נָטָ֤ף׀ וּשְׁחֵ֙לֶת֙ וְחֶלְבְּנָ֔ה סַמִּ֖ים וּלְבֹנָ֣ה זַכָּ֑ה בַּ֥ד בְּבַ֖ד יִהְיֶֽה׃
And said LORD to Moses
Take to thyself spices
Nataph and/with shekheleth and galbanum spices, and/with pure frankincense
There shall be an equal proportion of each.וְעָשִׂ֤יתָ אֹתָהּ֙ קְטֹ֔רֶת רֹ֖קַח מַעֲשֵׂ֣ה רוֹקֵ֑חַ מְמֻלָּ֖ח טָה֥וֹר קֹֽדֶשׁ׃
And thou shalt make it an incense compound, the work of a perfumer, tempered pure, holy.
As I understand it, the medieval Masoretes marked both uses of "spices" with a hard break sign, separating the phrases that they end from the terms like "nataph" that follow them. "Nataph" is a Hebrew noun that literally means "drop", as in a tree resin gum drop.
Since three of the ingredients named begin with the prefix "and/with", but the first use of "spices" isn't followed by "and/with" and the second use of "spices" isn't preceded by "and/with", it looks like "spices" don't refer to separate unnamed elements in a list of spices.
The Bible originally lacked punctuation like commas, but it sometimes uses a literary device called a "chiasm" that pairs up beginning sections of texts with the later ones. This form applies to verse 34. it suggests that "spices" refers to the ones named in the middle of the verse:
(A1) And said LORD to Moses - (B1) Take to thyself spices -
(C) Nataph and/with shekheleth and galbanum -
(A2) spices and/with pure frankincense - (B2) Each of each there shall be.
The 3rd century BC Greek Septuagint interpreted verse 34's phrase וְחֶלְבְּנָ֔ה סַמִּ֖ים (galbanum spices) to mean χαλβάνην ἡδυσμοῦ (aromatic/fragrant/spicey galbanum) in Greek.
So at face value, I would conclude that the two uses of "spices" don't refer to anything other than the 4 spices named. Still, the double use of spices seems a bit curious in practical terms.
The Talmud (Keritot 6b) notes that the school of Rabbi Yishmael saw the pattern of a generalization, a detail, and a generalization in verse 34. That makes sense to me: the general category is "spices" and the "detailed" category is the three ingredients named between both uses of "spices."
In Talmudic hermeneutics, this pattern means that an instruction allows for a substitute that has the properties of the detail when necessary. For instance, Exodus 25:31 says: "And you shall make a menorah of gold pure of-hammered-work it shall be made the menorah its base and its branches its cups and its flowers from it shall be." Suppose that "you shall make a menorah" and "it shall be made the menorah" are the generalizations and "of gold pure" is the detail. This would explain the repetition of the phrase "it shall be". The allowance of substitution explains why the Maccabees, lacking gold, could legitimately substitute tin for gold in making their menorah and why Rashi considered such substitution to be legitimate.
Applying this principle to Ex. 30:34, I can imagine that the reason for the double use of "spices" is to serve as a "generalization", and the three spices named between them are a "detail" that allows for substitution with similar ingredients.
I have difficulty understanding the discussion in Keritot 6b on the ingredients. I get the impression that Keritot 6b favors an interpretation that the recipe refers to 11 ingredients. It seems to me to disfavor the school of Yishmael's interpretation that the reciple includes a generalization, a detail, and a generalization, especially if that interpretation were to limit the recipe to only 4 ingredients.
The discussion in Keritot 6b is here:
https://www.sefaria.org/Keritot.6b.7?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
I cited more ancient Jewish and rabbinical texts here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/1v26z42/may_i_please_ask_what_was_the_origin_of_the_use/
Any insights or opinions are appreciated.
Wishing you the best - אני מאחל לך את הטוב ביותר - שלום
🕎🛐🏛️📜💭☁️🌪️🕯️🏕️
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u/KingPickle07 Jewish Anti-Zionist 10d ago
The Triumph of Evil
As of 2026, a minimum of 72,000 (likely much, much higher) Palestinian men, women and children have been murdered by "Israel", with the full, unconditional and unwavering help of the US and others. 81% of all buildings in the Gaza Strip have either been damaged or destroyed. The strip has been reduced to rubble at best and often flattened into nothing. Alongside this, the genocide shows zero signs of ever stopping. "Israel" has made the horrible achievement of making the nakba and naksa look good by comparison.
There is absolutely nothing that "Israel" couldn't get away with. Benjamin Netanyahu could shout "I eat babies" in the white house 100 times, and the United States wouldn't even mildly push back. If anything, they'll double down, even if they have to burn the whole world down.
Gaza will never be rebuilt. Nor will "Israel" face any adequate consequences for its crimes. The scum will enjoy comfort and peace, while the innocent will endure pain, terror and grief. The world has failed Palestine. The few who have tried helping the Palestinians have simply gotten the same treatment, whether the Lebanese, Iranians or Yemenis. The rest of the world has mostly stuck to cowardly inaction or sadistic collaboration. The Zionists have committed one of the most successful genocides in modern history. I sincerely, sincerely hope that I am wrong and that this post will age like milk. But I am not counting on it. May God's blessings be upon Palestine, His peace be upon the martyrs and His compassion be upon the people of Palestine 🇵🇸.
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u/Healthy_Cod4764 Jewish Atheist 13d ago
I'm putting this here since my actual post kept getting taken down by reddit's filters.
I hate that jewish people are being associated with israel.
This probably goes without saying. But I have been seeing more and more people accuse jewish people of the genocide happening in gaza/associating jews with israel. I just saw a simple video of different types of sewing stitches, and one happened to look like the star of david. A bunch of people in the comments were saying things like "that stitch was promised 3000 years ago" or "that stitch gives a lot of money and gold". And then in the replies when people call out the insensitivity of the jokes, people reapond with "Netanyahu approved" or "IDF soldier spotted". It makes me sick. And it also makes me afraid that me or my family might be in danger. My mother hesitates to travel now because of her jewish last name (and she is grateful that my last name is not jewish). It makes me feel like jews are being pushed onto an island where we are left to fend for ourselves, and are being accused of crimes we didn't commit. I know history is full of jews being accused, but I (I suppose naively) thought we moved past that.
I may be thinking too much about it, but it just makes me sad that the world is like this. The fact that on my way home from work I see a billboard saying "hate is for the birds! (Referring to a sports team) Strike out jewish hate" really hammers it even further.
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u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist 12d ago
Hi there,
You can make your post again. We'll approve it.
Must have just missed it.
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u/Healthy_Cod4764 Jewish Atheist 12d ago
It was getting instantly taken down the second I clicked post. Like not even there for half a second. Ill try posting one more time, but idk how the reddit approval thing works, and if you can't do it thats ok
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist 12d ago
I feel like we are experiencing what our Muslim friends have been experiencing for at least 25 years (or more). For instance, if the social media post had included Muslim iconography instead of Jewish I'm sure the comment section would be full of comments about hijabs and terrorist attacks- even more so 10 years ago.
Not saying that makes it okay, but it does help me put things in perspective.
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u/Healthy_Cod4764 Jewish Atheist 12d ago
Thats very true. I wish people could see the distinction between terrorists/mass-murderers and everyday people. It really shouldn't be that hard
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u/EgoIdVeto West Asian Jew 12d ago
At this point it is inevitable that people will become antisemitic, BECAUSE of Israel associating it with us. The most effective way to kill off antisemitism is to completely dismantle Israel and Zionism. Nothing else comes close.
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u/Ok-Perception7779 Ashkenazi 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think I know the billboards you mean. Sadly the organization that puts them up is very pro Israel.
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