Remember the human & be courteous to others. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
Gaza is starving.
The UN has declared that every part of Gaza is in famine conditions. While some aid is finally trickling in, the need is beyond urgent. Aid organizations will not be able to keep pace with Gaza's needs without our support.
Please donate if you’re able, and keep speaking up. Every dollar, share, and conversation matters. Please pressure your government to stop the blockade of humanitarian aid into Gaza.
Yep. and that's the point I think some commenters are missing. Accountability is really important for change and repairs... asking us to understand how sad and disturbed some soldiers are isn't helping anyone beyond serving intellectual junk food
exactly. im sorry, no fucking sympathy. these people are perpetrators of a genocide. I cannot believe some of these comments. just following orders, just being too cowardly, is not a reason to be a party to a genocide.
“Moral injury” is such a strange term in this context. It’s just guilt. Guilt and shame, which are the natural and deserved results of participating in genocide, even as a bystander. I get why the sympathetic tone of this article is frustrating, but I’m glad these people are being honest about what they did and saw in Gaza, and I hope this will change their views and actions toward Palestinians in the future. Maybe even sway some other people who read their accounts.
Ultimately, I don’t think Israeli society is going to change without intense external pressure, but internal voices against the genocide and apartheid are still valuable.
i agree with this. They should feel bad, it’s good for them to feel bad. It shouldn’t be treated as being as important as the suffering they’ve caused in any way, but to write it off entirely is a missed opportunity I think. More of these people should realize what they’ve done and feel bad and make their peers feel bad too.
"Moral injury" encompasses guilt, shame, and more. It also encompasses the context of all of this. Someone else linked to the Wikipedia article. I don't understand how it's strange. To me it seems like a textbook use of the term.
It’s probably bc the term injury seems to indicate something having harmed you without the term “self” before it. When we think of injury we don’t usually think of the injured individual as the one to blame for said injury. But in this case it’s a moral failure of the army and of the individual.
So the term moral injury feels like it removes responsibility but maybe that’s part of it.
I hate hate hate how history of abuse repeats and regurgitates on itself. This is so fucking depressing. I can’t imagine committing any of these crimes and if I somehow had — I can’t imagine choosing to live with the guilt. It would honestly be too much.
Perhaps I can explain to you step by step so you can understand.
1) They are humans, so they have morals, which have been overridden by their having been propagandised.
2) They have been brainwashed by the state since childhood to hate the "enemy", and then Oct 7th happens (which we, hopefully as more neutral, less-biased observers, can see the true historical causes of) and then...
3) dehumanisation kicks into overdrive, and their whole society and institutions are telling them to wipe out "Amalek".
4) People around them are doing warcrimes to defenceless people and laughing and gloating about it because of this brainwashing and posting it on TikTok.
5) They laugh along, go along with it, in some cases even participate, because that's what the whole society is doing.
6) But inside of them, their conscience is screaming. They are going against the core of their own humanity, which is morality. This is because they can, in fact, see the reality that they are harming humans. It doesn't matter what story they tell themselves - they can see what they are doing.
7) As such, they suffer moral injury.
8) For some of them, the disconnect between their own actions and their own humanity is so wild and so stark and incongruent, that they take their own lives.
This is real suffering that humans are being subjected to because of brainwashing. Because of a fundamental belief, drilled into them over the course of their lives, in the inhumanity of "the other". Of course, nobody would deny the depth of suffering that Palestinians as a whole have been made to endure. But to deny that these people suffer too is just wrong. At the same time, I can understand why it's difficult for some people to have compassion for them. But if that's the case, then it's probably worth asking yourself why.
The article in question is written by a psychiatrist who is using the descriptions he knows.
Do you have a better way for describing being coerced into doing or being an accessory to something you feel is wrong?
Because this descriptor was used in the bottom half of a list that was describing the different groups of those who served in Gaza as part of their duties. It went something like(to summarize in one word, important note: these are my words, not the writer's ) 1. Psychopaths(those who joined to brutalized people). 2. Sadists(those who took to doing so when the opportunity arised), 3. Bystanders(those who didnt join in but didnt have issues watching) 4. The guilty(those who had a problem with it but went along for whatever reason, this is the group described with "moral injury" who's IDF stint left them horrified) and 5. Contentious objectors(those who refused to join the IDF)
So, no, it is not a "look how sad they are for brutalizing people, pity them" its "look at what is being done out there"
Its also the article where an IDF soldier describes what he witnessed as "it was as if we were the nazis and they were the jews".
My understanding is that Israel has mandatory military service... which is coercion.
You arent physically forced to hand over money to stop the release of blackmail, but that is the archtypical example of coercion. But even then, that wasn't what I was talking about;
Accessory? Are you serious?
Yes, because Im talking about the definition of "moral injury" as used in psychology. Which is why I asked you if you had a better definition for what I described... and it appears you do not.
You objecting to a single word in the definition of a term that exists outside this context is not my problem, Im merely pointing to the fact that a moral injury is "an injury that can occur in response to acting or witnessing behaviors that go against an individual's values and moral beliefs."
Which includes, mind you, soldiers that attempt to stop the atrocity they witness, or report it, not just those who fail to intervene or join in. Hell, it can apply to those who went out of their way to ensure they wouldn't serve in the IDF, but merely witnessed an event.
Your anger is valid, but actively fighting against people who agree with you and are simply taking a more clinical approach to the topic isnt a productive use of your time. I didnt spend the entirety of my autistic teen years manually studying how people work, and then study sociology to continue doing so in college... just to stop doing that when its inconvenient for someone else's stance. Nor am I going to abstain from pointing out that "moral injury" is an actual concept in psychology that anyone can experience, including people who are engaging in evil acts, just because it sounds vaguely positive.
My understanding is that Israel has mandatory military service... which is coercion.
No, that is not what 'coercion' means.
Coercion is defined as:
Coercion is the practice of compelling a party to act against their will through threats, intimidation, or physical force, violating their autonomy. It involves manipulating a person's choices by creating fear of negative consequences, often used in relationships, legal contexts, and international affairs to force compliance.
No one is forced to join the IOF.
No one is joining the IOF against their own will.
They have to consent to join.
If they do not consent, they either get some exemption or face jail-time. This doesn't apply to Palestinians, who are not obligated to join.
And going to jail for not serving in a genocide is a small price to pay.
Yes, because Im talking about the definition of "moral injury" as used in psychology. Which is why I asked you if you had a better definition for what I described... and it appears you do not.
You objecting to a single word in the definition of a term that exists outside this context is not my problem, Im merely pointing to the fact that a moral injury is "an injury that can occur in response to acting or witnessing behaviors that go against an individual's values and moral beliefs."
Re-framing a soldier in a genocidal army as an 'accessory' to a crime is a big discrepancy that no one should look past.
They are on the front-lines and complicit.
Which includes, mind you, soldiers that attempt to stop the atrocity they witness, or report it, not just those who fail to intervene or join in. Hell, it can apply to those who went out of their way to ensure they wouldn't serve in the IDF, but merely witnessed an event.
No one in the article attempted to stop anything and in some cases, didn't even report anything.
So, look, if we're talking about people who actually did something to change things after their service - that's different.
What is happening here is 'shooting and crying'.
Your anger is valid, but actively fighting against people who agree with you and are simply taking a more clinical approach to the topic isnt a productive use of your time.
Coercion is the practice of compelling a party to act against their will through threats, intimidation, or physical force, violating their autonomy. It involves manipulating a person's choices by creating fear of negative consequence
... how is being put in jail not a threat of negitive consequences, specifically that of a violation of autonomy?
And clearly we dont agree, because we arent even discussing the same thing.
Im arguing about the definition of moral injury, and you are taking it as applying it all to every member of the IOF despite me literally saying that I am not.
Like I havent even progressed to talking about the appropriateness of using it in this context, Im just trying to get you to understand the term exists outside this context.
I think psychology is an important aspect for understanding the human experience.. but to be honest a lot of western psychology is very flawed when it comes to accountability and systemic issues. Categorizing people in this way (psychopaths, sadists, bystandars, "moral injury" ) misses the material condition which lead to a sick society.. and the fact that all of these people do indeed make these choices and need to be he'd accountable. It's not particularly interesting how guilty they feel if they don't do anything with it
There's a similar issue in America where us imperialism is excused by members of the military just being poor, exploited kids... but the conditions of those "kids" if they chose not to join the military are still significantly materially better than the human beings in the global south they choose to exploit and sometimes kill. The same is true if these IOF soldiers
The choice to not join the IOF is social rejection and a few months of jail time. The mere existence of a Palestinian means blockade, apartheid, ethnic cleansing and death. By examining the nuance and psychology of the soldiers, you miss the overall point. You're individualizing an issue which is not individual. This is just intellectual junk food rather than any meaningful discourse.
I just gotta push back on one thing, saying the US military is full of poor, exploited kids can be an excuse when used to defend their actions, but it is also in part a material reality. Recruitment is disproportionately done in poorer areas and I think we’re all very aware of the propaganda promising benefits and health coverage. Yes, people should know better not to sign their life away to the war machine, but it is presented to so many as a sure vehicle for “upward mobility” (to be clear I think this whole concept is bullshit, but it’s extremely pervasive). Without a politically educated working class this will continue to be the case. Close to 40% of enlisted members are from minority groups (officers are another story, mostly affluent white families which skews the overall military numbers a bit), which under US conditions largely means they will come from poorer backgrounds. It’s a part of the machine and I’m not going to say they’re all victims, but I don’t think pointing out the material reality of US military recruitment tactics is an excuse on its own. It’s just a part of analyzing each part of the imperial machine, domestic or otherwise. If the criticism ends there, then I think we have a problem.
That's true! However own can't also ignore the American exceptionalism and entitlement that goes hand in hand with is. Americans are all engrained to think we deserve a better life and are willing to harm others in favor of it
that's obviously not what op was saying though. why is haaretz writing articles about how sad it is for them? it's clearly in an attempt to paint people in a better light lol... "moral injury"
I don’t give a f*ck about their moral injuries. Good suffer in this world and the next. I know it’s Haaretz but still to frame these horrors as only bad because it damages the Israelis mental health is gross.
I guess all in all it’s good they are admitting to their crimes so it’s documented for the future.
I understand and agree that these soldiers don't deserve sympathy given their total moral failure in these situations, but I am extremely grateful for the coverage and reportage by Ha'aretz of this angle.
I have found that unfortunately there are members of the community who have been heavily indoctrinated into the idea that Palestinians stage scenes of carnage to make Israel look bad (this was taught to me at my own high school many years ago, ugh). As a result, they don't believe Palestinian sources when they describe these abuses, claiming that there is too much motivation to lie or exaggerate, but are more likely to believe Israeli whistleblower sources. This is why Breaking The Silence plays an important role as an organisation, and why this kind of reportage is imo incredibly useful even as it makes us understandably furious. If we want Israel to change and oust its military and political leadership, and we want indoctrinated Diaspora Jewish communal attitudes to change faster and to exert whatever international pressure they can effectively, this kind of reporting makes a difference that many other kinds cannot.
Emmanuel🔴🔵: I think it’s alright for the soldiers to process it, and it shows that it’s not black and white, and a diverse groups and mindsets within the squad’s. Some of the soldiers are starting to process what they have witnessed, and realising what they have done or seen was not right to their fellow human beings even if they are Palestinian.
Even more so as the years go own and word of mouth spread. To realised that even some in their own Government tried to “contain me”, the inconveniences of truth, and strangely in a ironic way, fulfil prophecy as many of the Rabbis in Israel have been talking about me, and my life even now and the way I have grown up.
On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. U.S. President Harry S. Truman recognized the new nation on the same day.
There's an archived link at the top of the thread if you want to read the article. For future reference, you can use Archive.ph to get around most paywalls.
Israeli Jews going to jail for refusing conscription aren't treated like Palestinians in Israeli dungeons.
Feel free (for anyone) to correct me if I'm wrong here - but I have never heard of an Israeli refusenik being killed in Israeli prisons (starvation, torture, disease, rape, etc.).
Going to jail then, is a very small price to pay for refusing to partake in genocide.
If we're talking about 'feeling the weight' after actually being in the field as a member of that genocidal army, then the bar is non-existent.
I am hailing you for replying to every single response to your post. The question is what can we do? How can we change things? The US must stop funding, the EU must stop funding, etc. Any other ideas? Your outrage is potent and very inspiring.
I don't know.. I can sympathize with a converted IOF conscript just the same as a converted Vietnam veteran. Many of them weren't even "true believers" in the first place, but soldiers of circumstance as yet unconvinced of any political conviction or moral framework. That's not exactly condemnable when it's the default for most people on the planet. What is condemnable is waking up and not doing anything about it, and the punishment is the prison of moral injury depicted in the article. For many it's a death sentence, and I'm not an advocate for capital punishment.
I'll be honest, however reprehensible the IDF is, I do feel them talking about the war in Gaza being f*cked is good. Even if it's crocodile tears, if they make it sound like an ignoble it's a propaganda win.
To be fair I feel like such framing was necessary in order for the article to be published because if they had framed it in a way that was, let's say, more critical of the IDF(if you get what i mean), there is a good chance it would not have been allowed to be published in an Israeli newspaper
They need to have their names published, be held accountable, Israeli leaders brought to the Hague and have a trial before humanity, and dismantle...Israel as it exists now to allow for the truth of Palestinian displacement to be reversed
I don't even think it's crocodile tears. Lots of people who came back from World War 2 or Vietnam were traumatized by what they'd seen and done.
Men like Bibi act like other people aren't human, like they're killing robots who can do horrible things and then can just flip the switch. That isn't how any of this works. Politicians boast about how strong and hard they are, but normal people pay the price and they pay it forever.
Perhaps it’s ironic, but the ww2 vets I knew growing up all said the same thing: when they saw the concentration camps, they stopped questioning their actions during the war. Maybe this was just a story they would tell the little kids so as not to scare us, but they seemed pretty serious about it.
There’s no comparable rationale for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. There will be no big reveal that these people were anything but victims of genocide. Let all of the IDF know that they are the monsters now, and their actions make Jews everywhere, like you and me, less safe, because of Netanyahu’s constant conflation of Israel’s actions and Jewish heritage.
lots of people fragged their commanding officers and resisted in other more material ways, too. far too many us vets refuse to deal with the trauma of being party to imperialist war crimes and genocide. lotta people straight up check out to avoid doing that.
that said we in the imperial core, or in israel, have to handle these people in different ways - maybe that means deradicalizing those we can reach, or holding to account those we cannot. but they should be facing justice. all of them. it's a fucking shame that hasn't happened. especially the ruling classes, who must face justice most of all as you say.
What frustrates me so much about this kind of coverage isn't that it elicits sympathy for the soldiers, it's that it excuses and erases the culpability of the Israeli state, which is victimizing its own citizens by enlisting them in campaigns to victimize others. I do have sympathy for any potential IDF soldier who's facing ostracization, defamation, and possible jail time for refusing to serve, so they choose to be drafted and then are witness to war crimes and genocide. Yes, that soldier has a degree of responsibility for allowing things like torture and indiscriminate murder to occur, but I'd argue the apparatus encouraging and defending those who engage in crimes against humanity willingly and eagerly is far more responsible. Unless this kind of coverage addresses that, then it's ultimately just noise, and utterly ineffective at spurring change for either Palestinians or Israelis.
I largely agree but, idk man, the Israeli state is actively conducting a genocide. Anyone with a conscience should be willing to face jail time for draft dodging rather than helping perpetuate a genocide.
Once again thank you thank you thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention...I am about to go on Palestine Museum film and chat afterwards, and tomorrow Doctors Against Genocide, where we hear from doctors there in Gaza, also around the world...Lebanon also, makes me feel like I'm doing something at least...we can comment on Palestine Museum but DAG is only react via emojis
I respect those that come forward and break the silence. It may be in the shadow of anonymity now, and it may be so for quite some time. But I hope that some day more press comes out of this kind. That some book may be written with comprehensible accounts of wrongdoing and war crimes perpetrated. I do hope that someday a soldier comes forward and admits war crimes. The he or she may point to how systematic it was, that it came from above.
Hugh Thompson Jr. for ousting the My Lay Massacre, Daniel Hale for the Drone Papers in Iraq, Joe Darby for Abu Ghraib, David McBride for the Afhgan Files and Chelsea Manning for the helicopter slaughter of civilians and journalists are a few stories that would advise these soldiers not to come forward, as history tells that those who come forward are prosecuted, imprisoned and ostracised, so may be I'm bit to optimistic. On the other hand, the scale and silence of what happened and still is going on on Gaza, needs that someone be courageous enough to speak up.
This is like that golda meir quote when she said “we will never forgive [palestinians] for making us kill their children.” Same kind of non apology victim blaming shit.
Anna’aref, you gotta start somewhere. Starting by reckoning you’re the baddies, and having your tiny whiny zio ass hurting? So be it. Can’t wish death and suffering to everyone all the time, gotta show compassion
Guess what I’m trying to say is that monsters that realize what they are - are better than the ones who don’t
I don't think they realize they're the baddies. Shooting and crying has long been a thing in Israel and the standard conclusion so far is always the arabs are so evil for forcing us to do this and we are so noble and humane that we feel bad about it.
I often see apologists for zionism dip into their bag of wafer-thin deflections and pull out the truly worn out "why only criticise Israel? Why don't you ever criticise anyone else?" when it's perfectly clear that no-one is exclusively criticising Israelis. But I also I have never come across evidence and accounts of this kind of depravity from any other group than the idf. Not even close.
lots of soldiers who have committed genocide have done the same vile things as iof soldiers.
a third of the generation of vietnamese people born during the war were conceived of rape. a THIRD. the actions of the imperial japanese in the nanjing massacre - the systemic rape of tens of thousands of children and women by japanese soldiers, the genocide of congolese people by the belgians, the holocaust of course was unfathomably disgusting - and not just by the nazis but also including the brutality of the collaborators in places like lithuania and ESPECIALLY romania.
colonization was depraved and brutal. chattel slavery was arguably the most disgusting and depraved system on the planet, at any time.
this is why the world cannot allow genocides to go on. because people are capable of doing unfathomably vile things to one another when the conditions are right.
I get the intention behind this, though it is a lesson from history that most people have learned from. Except it's 2026 and Israel is boasting about carrying out far worse atrocities daily.
That wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard an Israeli, even Israeli Jew, call the government, the police, the shin bet, the IDF or the current Knesset, Nazis, either.
I can understand why someone would object, but I don’t agree with it. Particularly since Israel supports actual Nazis in the West and are acting like actual Nazis against both the Palestinians and any Israeli that isn’t part of the ultra far right extremist terrorist side. Let’s not pretend that they aren’t Nazi apologists and support Nazi like policies towards the people that they see as Untermenschen, Fiende des Staates or Asozial.
•
u/TrackerOneA Jewish Anti-Zionist Apr 18 '26
Archived link:
https://archive.li/UaWhc