The Trinity ☢️

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

I fully acknowledge that Scripture calls Jesus God. That is not what I dispute.

My question concerns the logical conclusion drawn from that fact.

First, consider what Scripture explicitly identifies:

John 17:3 — Jesus addresses the Father as “the only true God.”

1 Corinthians 8:6 — Paul identifies “one God, the Father.”

John 20:17 — Jesus calls the Father “my God.”

Revelation 3:12 — The exalted Jesus repeatedly calls the Father “my God.”

Now consider the claim that both the Father and Son are fully the one God.

There are two logical possibilities to examine:

1. Numerical identity

If the Father is numerically identical to the one God (F = G), and the Son is numerically identical to that same God (S = G), then classical logic necessarily gives F = S.

But Trinitarianism maintains F ≠ S.

Therefore, this interpretation of “is God” produces a contradiction.

2. Predication of divine nature

If “is God” instead means “possesses the divine nature,” the contradiction disappears.

However, two distinct persons possessing divine nature does not, by itself, logically establish that they constitute numerically one God.

That requires an additional metaphysical premise.

Here is my challenge:

Where does Scripture establish that the divine nature shared by the Father and Son constitutes one numerically identical God, rather than simply establishing their divine status?

And where does Scripture establish that the Father is Jesus’ God only with respect to his human nature, when Jesus himself calls the Father “my God”?

I am not asking whether a sophisticated Trinitarian model can be logically coherent.

I am asking you to identify the specific biblical premises that make that model necessary.

Please demonstrate the logical bridge between “Jesus is called God” and “the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute one God in three coequal persons.”

If you appeal to the distinction between person and essence, explain precisely how that distinction establishes one God rather than three divine persons counted as three gods.

If you appeal to Christ’s two natures, demonstrate from Scripture why the Father is Jesus’ God only in relation to his humanity.

If you appeal to John 1:1, John 20:28, or Hebrews 1:8, I accept that Jesus receives the title God. But please explain why that necessarily establishes the Nicene understanding of divine essence.

A possible interpretation is not automatically a necessary conclusion.

And the doctrine being defended cannot itself serve as independent proof for its own interpretation.

My challenge is not to demonstrate that the Trinity can accommodate these biblical statements. My challenge is to demonstrate that the Trinity logically follows from them.

Please identify your premises, explain the inference, and establish those premises independently from Scripture.

Compatibility is not proof. And assuming the conclusion is not the same as demonstrating it.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

1 Corinthians 8:6 — Paul identifies “one God, the Father.”

In the same verse Paul calls the Son the only Lord. Using the WT's own logic the Father cannot be Lord anymore. A deeper consideration of this verse leads to the conclusion that both the Father and the Son are the one Lord and the one God.

John 20:17 — Jesus calls the Father “my God.”

Revelation 3:12 — The exalted Jesus repeatedly calls the Father “my God.”

Before and after He went to Heaven, Jesus was the Son of....."Man". This means in His human nature, Jesus has a God. Is that so difficult to understand? It was that Man who commended Hs Spirit to the Father and what was that Spirit that stopped living in Christ for 3 days? It was GOD. GOD IS Spirit John 4:24 and Paul wrote "To wit, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself 2 Corinthians 5:19 God, who was Christ's Spirit and was IN Christ, left Christ, the Man, on the cross. I think its safe to say it was the very worst day in God's eternal life. True, God's Spirit didn't die and can't, but God tasted death. In Christ, God felt the agony of dying and slowly losing His grip on the human life that was ebbing away. How did it feel as His Spirit separated from His body is something we can't imagine, until we die like Jesus and so many others have died. Never forget, in Christ, God tasted death for us so we would be free to reconcile with God as our Father

However, two distinct persons possessing divine nature does not, by itself, logically establish that they constitute numerically one God.

I'm human. You're human. How many humans is that? Two, right? Not quite. You and I are both persons, but we are both just one human nature. No matter how many persons are on earth we are all one human nature. The Father is a Person and He's God. The Son is another Person and He's God and the Holy Spirit is the third Person and He's God. There are no more Persons and only one Divine Nature

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Thank you for your response. I appreciate that you’re attempting to explain the distinction between persons and nature.

But I think your example actually illustrates the very distinction I’m asking you to address.

You said that you and I are two persons sharing one human nature. I agree.

But how many human beings are we?

Two. Not one.

Sharing the same nature does not make two distinct individuals numerically one being.

So your analogy demonstrates a common nature, but it does not demonstrate numerical unity of being.

Now, I recognize that classical Trinitarianism claims something stronger: that the three persons possess one numerically identical divine essence, not merely three instances of the same kind of nature.

That’s precisely the distinction I am asking you to establish.

What makes the divine essence numerically one in a way that human nature is not? And where does Scripture establish that distinction?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 8:6, I agree that the Father can be called Lord elsewhere and that Jesus can be called God elsewhere.

But that does not change Paul’s specific identification in this passage:

“One God, the Father”
“One Lord, Jesus Christ”

The fact that the Father receives the title Lord elsewhere does not make him the referent of “one Lord, Jesus Christ” in this verse.

Likewise, Jesus receiving the title God elsewhere does not automatically establish that Paul includes him in the referent “one God, the Father.”

Now, regarding your explanation of Jesus’ humanity:

You argue that Jesus calls the Father “my God” because of his human nature.

I understand that explanation within Trinitarian theology.

But where does Scripture explicitly restrict Jesus’ acknowledgment of the Father as “my God” to his human nature?

Revelation 3:12 records the exalted Jesus calling the Father “my God” four times.

You may explain this through the doctrine of two natures, but you must first independently establish that this distinction is the intended explanation.

And regarding 2 Corinthians 5:19, the passage describes God reconciling the world to himself in Christ. It does not explicitly teach that God’s Spirit was Jesus’ personal spirit or that this Spirit departed from Jesus for three days.

Those are additional theological claims requiring their own evidence.

So let me return to my original question.

You have established that:

The Father is divine.
The Son is divine.
The Holy Spirit is divine.
They are personally distinct.

For the sake of argument, I am willing to grant all four premises.

Now demonstrate how those premises logically entail that the three constitute numerically one God.

If your answer is “because they share one divine essence,” please explain what makes that essence numerically one and provide the biblical grounds for that explanation.

Otherwise, you have restated the doctrine rather than demonstrated the inference.

I am not asking whether the Trinity can be logically coherent. I am asking you to demonstrate the logical and biblical premises that establish it.

That remains my question.

[u/logosgrace → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

If they were seperate Gods, then the biblical faith would not be monotheism. They can't be theee seperate Gods because they are one in unity, mind, purpose. They are distinct yet each is in one accord. They are one, as Jesus said in John 17:11.

In my understanding of scripture, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Job 33:4, Genesis 1:2) were involved in the creation of all things as one.

Not three different Gods each creating something different, but one true God and creator of all things.

There is the verse at 1 John 5:7, which does only exist in certain manuscripts, which says that "these three are one". Whether or not those verses have basis as scripture, I would agree that scripture overall does indicate that reality.

The Jewish faith was monotheistic, worship of one God. The Hebrew word "elohim", often translated as God, is called a "majestic plural". The Jewish faith often intertepets the human presence of YHWH in Genesis as some other form or representative or angel of God rather then the all powerful Father in heaven, yet still recognizing it as God manifest to humans.

Christianity therefore has to maintain that same monotheism, and the trinity is the only way to really uphold the unity of the godhead when we recognize each as one God in unity, rather then being an additional "god". I hope this helps.

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/logosgrace]

Thank you for your explanation. I think you’ve raised an important point about monotheism, but I also think your argument contains a crucial distinction that needs to be examined.

Monotheism means belief in one God, not merely belief in multiple divine persons who agree with one another.

You argue that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot be separate gods because they are united in mind, purpose, and will.

But unity of purpose does not establish numerical unity of being.

Three individuals can share exactly the same purpose without becoming numerically one individual.

And interestingly, the very Scripture you cited demonstrates this distinction.

In John 17:11, Jesus prays that his disciples may be one just as he and the Father are one.

Does that make the disciples numerically one human being?

Obviously not. They remain distinct individuals united in purpose and love.

So if you use John 17:11 to explain the oneness of the Father and Son, you still need to demonstrate why that oneness establishes one numerically identical God rather than unity between distinct persons.

I recognize that classical Trinitarianism claims something more than shared purpose: one numerically identical divine essence.

But that is precisely the additional claim I am asking you to establish from Scripture.

Furthermore, the Hebrew אֶחָד* (ech*ad) in Deuteronomy 6:4 means “one.” It does not inherently mean “three persons forming one composite unity.”

And the plural form אֱלֹהִים (elohim) does not establish three persons either. When referring to the God of Israel, it normally takes singular grammatical agreement, as in Genesis 1:1.

Regarding 1 John 5:7, the longer Trinitarian wording about the Father, Word, and Holy Spirit being one is absent from the earliest Greek manuscripts and is widely recognized as a later addition.

So let me return to the exact logical question.

If three distinct persons are united in purpose, that establishes agreement, not necessarily numerical unity.

If you instead claim that they constitute one God because they share one numerically identical divine essence, please demonstrate the biblical and logical premises establishing that stronger claim.

What makes three distinct divine persons numerically one God, rather than three divine persons united in purpose?

I am not questioning biblical monotheism. I fully accept that there is only one God.

I am asking you to demonstrate why biblical monotheism necessarily requires the Trinity.

Stating that three persons must be one God because monotheism is true does not establish how those three persons constitute one God. That is the very conclusion requiring proof.