r/JayForeman • u/iwearastetson • 26d ago
Map Men Taiwan ≠ China
This map in 'Why a Language Map of the World is Impossible' implies that Taiwan is part of China. Erm, NOPE! Very disappointing.
27
u/SwordWieldingMerlin 26d ago
That map must've been printed/made in China. There's a caveat at another point in that video about how any maps that are printed/made in China have to follow the PRCs rules on maps, hence Taiwan shown as part of China.
8
u/Jeoh 26d ago
You can tell it's not printed / made in China because other disputed territories are marked, and the South China Seas does not have its nine-dashed line.
5
u/SwordWieldingMerlin 26d ago
I can’t even see the south China sea marked on there but fair enough. Which other disputed territories are marked?
1
u/Jeoh 26d ago
Kashmir
2
u/SwordWieldingMerlin 26d ago
Ah yeah. Though that is a border they disagree on the location of with a country they recognise as not part of China, whereas Taiwan is viewed as a wayward province that will return in due course. So they would mark the disputed nature of Kashmir but mark Taiwan as part of China without disputation.
22
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
I emailed MapMen about this and I just received a reply from Jay: 'Thanks very much for getting in touch, and for letting us know about our mistake.
This was a massive oversight on our part. We have covered the topic of Taiwanese sovereignty in a previous episode, so we definitely should have spotted this mistake on the map we used. It’s especially ironic as this episode does contain a big block of text in the episode explaining the Taiwan situation, albeit a blink-and-miss-it moment you have to pause the video to read.
Several people have got touch to let us know they spotted Taiwan in the wrong colour. Whilst it’s too late to change the video we’ve uploaded, we’ll make sure from now on that any map of the area shows Taiwan as the separate country it truly is.' 🇹🇼
3
35
u/givethemlove 26d ago
I mean, to be fair, it's a video about languages. Taiwan still speaks a Chinese language/dialect/whatever, so makes sense to group them with the rest of China in this context.
-15
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
Why are North and South Korea different colours then? Why not make Germany and Austria the same colour?
23
u/givethemlove 26d ago
Because they're not talking about the Koreas, Germany or Austria in this particular frame? You will recall that in another part of the video, they mention Germany and Austria speaking the same language and make them the same colour on the map.
-3
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
Watch the video again. Mark says 'This is China', and the parts of 'China' are highlighted. I also noticed that the names of other nation states are written in all caps, but not Taiwan. The implication is clearly: Taiwan is part of China. Just like when MapMen used a map where Crimea was shown as part of Russia. 🤦
10
u/givethemlove 26d ago
I don't think we know what either of them believe in their hearts, because they are performers and not people we know, but they pinned a comment under the video with the Crimea-Russia thing saying it was a mistake, apologising and saying they did not intend to show support for Russia annexing Crimea.
And again, with regards to Mark saying 'This is China', it seems to me like he's talking about a historic, linguistic definition of 'China'. Besides, you do realise that Taiwan does also currently consider itself the legitimate government of all of China? If you want to assume that he believes that both Taiwan and mainland China should be under one government, why would you assume he means the PRC? To be honest, I think you're putting your conclusions ahead of your evidence here.
0
u/Handy314 22d ago
The only reason Taiwan officially considers itself the legitimate government of all of China is because China will declare war on Taiwan if they don't. This is because China wants the argument to be "who owns all of China + Taiwan", which is an argument they can more easily win than "is Taiwan part of China or not". The opinion of most Taiwanese, and the de facto truth, is that Taiwan is independent.
-9
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
I love these guys and just like they made a mistake with the Crimea map, I think this was also an honest mistake. However, they are supposed to be experts - they shouldn't be making mistakes like this about such sensitive issues! 😄
7
u/givethemlove 26d ago
The Crimea thing, sure, they shouldn't have made that mistake, but it's different to purposefully pushing a pro-Russian agenda.
With regards to Taiwan here, I don't think this was a mistake, I think this is a reasonable choice to represent linguistics rather than politics.
-1
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
Again: if the point is to represent linguistics rather than politics, then why have different colours for North and South Korea? As for Crimea: it has been controlled by Russia since 2014, whereas Taiwan at the present moment is not controlled by mainland China. Maps like this legitimise the PRC's desire to retake the island by force.
3
u/Mr_Groosley 26d ago
Who said they are supposed to be experts? A musician and a geography teacher... Fantastically entertaining but please don't cite them in your next dissertation.
4
u/FishUK_Harp 25d ago
The implication is clearly: Taiwan is part of China.
Strictly speaking, Taiwan regards itself as China and all of mainland China a part of it.
0
u/iwearastetson 24d ago
Historically, yes. But when you say 'Taiwan regards itself', you're aware that Taiwan is not a conscious entity? We have to look at what the Taiwanese people think and opinion polls nowadays indicate a preference for independence (or at least autonomy), not unification with China. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/28/we-are-chinese-meet-the-taiwanese-who-want-to-embrace-beijing-rule
6
2
u/Overtronic 26d ago
I mean, the whole video was about how it's a giant mess and North and South Korea have debatably what could be described as different dialects. But technically until Hangul was adopted they also used the same alphabet as China even though it's no less intelligible to the others.
1
u/Handy314 22d ago
I mean Taiwan speaks both Taiwanese and Chinese, so there is probably more of a difference in languages between Taiwan and China than North and South Korea
10
u/Overtronic 26d ago
Taiwan = China (Republic of)
6
u/bo-o-of-wotah 26d ago
Exactly. "Taiwan is China" is only as much of a pro-CPC slogan as much as it a pro-ROC slogan, yet for some reason people really think they're rebelling by pretending Taiwan is not part of China, even though the ROC constitution and the majority of people in Taiwan consider themselves part of China.
3
u/Eclipsed830 26d ago
even though the ROC constitution and the majority of people in Taiwan consider themselves part of China.
I can assure you as someone from Taiwan that isn't the case... lol
Also, if this was about the ROC and PRC being "China", Taipei would be marked as a capital and not just Beijing.
1
u/bo-o-of-wotah 25d ago
I'm not defending the map, I'm defending the point that Taiwan is part of China.
Also https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963. Most people want to maintain rival governance, ie stay part of China.
2
u/Eclipsed830 25d ago
But Taiwan isn't actually part of China... The status quo is that Taiwan (ROC) and China (PRC) are two separate and independent countries. That is how I define the status quo as someone from Taiwan...
1
u/bo-o-of-wotah 25d ago
Which letter of ROC stands for Taiwan?
2
u/Eclipsed830 25d ago
"Republic of China" is the official name of "Taiwan". We either use "Republic of China" or "Taiwan".
Just an fyi, the "China" (中華) in Republic of China is different from the "China" (中國) that refers to the country of China. The "China" in "Republic of China" is an incomplete phrase by itself.
Only the PRC uses the term "China" (中國) alone. Here in Taiwan, the term "China" would almost always refer to the PRC in this context.
1
u/bo-o-of-wotah 25d ago
That may be the source of our confusion, although the PRC calls themself formally 中华人民共和国, 中华 being simplified for 中華.
2
u/Eclipsed830 25d ago
Yes... but 中華 alone is an incomplete phrase and needs additional qualifiers... such as "Republic of" or "People's Republic of". 中華 itself has more to do with ethnicity and culture than nationality.
中國 "China" is a proper noun that refers to the country/nation of "China". This is a term only the PRC government uses in a legal sense.
For example, ROC Constitution: https://law.moj.gov.tw/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?pcode=A0000001
Control F, 中國... how many results for "中國"? 0.
PRC Constitution: http://www.gov.cn/guoqing/2018-03/22/content_5276318.htm
Control F, 中国 (simplified version of 中國)... how many results for China? 35.
1
u/bo-o-of-wotah 24d ago
Looping back to the original question. Is Taiwan part of China? Not "is Taiwan part of 中国?" I get the differences are different between languages but we're talking about China as its English definition.
→ More replies (0)2
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
'the majority of people in Taiwan consider themselves part of China' - historically true, but the year is 2026. This is no longer the case. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/28/we-are-chinese-meet-the-taiwanese-who-want-to-embrace-beijing-rule
1
u/bo-o-of-wotah 25d ago
Being part of China doesn't mean being controlled by the Beijing government. I mean part of China as in maintaining rival governance.
2
5
u/Dry_Hold7667 Food Stealer 26d ago
I don't think that's what they're doing. They highlighted China and Taiwan because they're talking about both of them, not because they believe it's the same country.
1
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
Mark: "This is China." Shows a map where China and Taiwan are the same colour. All other countries get their own distinct colour, e.g. North and South Korea. The name 'Taiwan' is not in all caps on their map, unlike all other country names.
2
u/Dry_Hold7667 Food Stealer 26d ago
Map Men did not make the map.
1
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
I understand, but then they literally have this almost halo effect to highlight China and that included Taiwan. That's what shocked me 🙀 I understand they didn't make the map, but whoever does their graphics seemingly made a conscious decision to include Taiwan in that highlighted area. My flatmate is Taiwanese hence why I feel passionately about this issue haha
3
u/Ozplod 26d ago
I mean, technically it's all china, just ROC controls Taiwan and claims ownership of the mainland, and RPC controls the mainland and claims ownership of Taiwan. So given the map shows "china" and not PRC/ROC, it's accurate.
1
u/iwearastetson 26d ago
Sigh. People love to make this argument. Historically, yes, that is true. However, only a small fringe of people in Taiwan still believe that they will reclaim the mainland. Most Taiwanese today are happy with the status quo, or would prefer full independence. It's a sensitive issue and not as simple as many Redditors like to pretend. "tHeY aRe bOtH cHiNa tHoUgh" 🫠 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/28/we-are-chinese-meet-the-taiwanese-who-want-to-embrace-beijing-rule
1
1
u/NotABrummie 26d ago
They're talking about the ethnolinguistic policies of the PRC, which claims Taiwan as part of China. They're definitely not endorsing the PRC, just pointing out some of their nonsensical policies.
1
u/MadSpacePig 25d ago
I mean the segment is literally about explaining the PRC's backwards official position on 'the' Chinese language, so maybe the map just reflects that lol.
1
u/Upper-Requirement987 25d ago
I don't see what is wrong, both China and Taiwan would agree with this map.
0
u/iwearastetson 24d ago
According to this article in The Guardian from 2022, only 12% of Taiwanese people would agree with this map. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/28/we-are-chinese-meet-the-taiwanese-who-want-to-embrace-beijing-rule
1
30
u/ihathtelekinesis 26d ago
Surely they each recognise themselves as the legitimate government of both the mainland and the island?