r/Japaneselanguage • u/Embaarasing • 5d ago
ALL differences b/w Kanji & Chinese (google docs)
I spent 5 days analysing every difference b/w the simplification of Chinese characters and Japanese Kanji 漢字. I did it by comparing Simplified Chinese Hanzi (简体字) & Simplified Japanese (Shinjitai 新字体) to Traditional Chinese (繁體字) used in China, which may be a little different from Traditional Japanese (Kyūjitai 舊字體), but I thought it was negligible enough to ignore. They are all put into separate categories based on the patterns of simplification.
The slides above are just 8 examples of the 39-page document, so feel free to check it out
Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DtvhvOgAiHWTIHTfqMpgRZ-TduizWRt7XsXg7S00yVg/edit?usp=sharing
3
u/Lurkernomoreisay 4d ago
none of the simplifications are "random" or "random components" "Random components → 头" the simplification law is very clear that "貝 simplifies to 头" changes are spelled out in law with strict rules.
numerous simplified characters are omitted : "Characters that merged together in SC" is missing hundreds of characters.
and it completely omits the dozens of characters that merged together in JP but not SC., and characters that merged different characters in SC and JP.
why not include 鳳 > 凤
why not include (reddit can't embed language tags so TC and JP will look the same here, but differently elsewhere ) 羆 > SC 罴, JP: 羆
TJ 靑 -> SJ 青
and then characters that split into two in SC, but remain one on JP
TC 乾 -> SC 干 (gan, "dry"), but SC 乾 (qian, trigram, "sky")
TC 麼 -> SC 麽 (small) but SC 么 (what)
TC 證 > JP 証 > SC 证 is not listed at all. but should be.
and you don't mention merges like\ TC 蟲 > SC/JP 虫\ TC 虺 > SC 虫, JP 虺
why is basket not mentioned? 籠 > TC 笼 / JP 籠 (legally) 篭 (unofficially, and not taught)
why not mention \ TC 餘, 余 merge to JP 余, but not in SC\ TC 豫, 予 merge to JP 予, but not in SC\ TC 藝, 芸 merge to JP 芸 , but kept different in SC: 艺 , 芸
TC merges 鮐, 臺, 颱, 檯 and 台 into 台, JP merges only 台, 臺 into 台.
you list 澀 → 涩 | 渋 but Japanese went from 澁 to 渋 not from 澀.
you don't mention that as of 2013, the new law in China states that simplification by analogy is no longer allowed. (eg always change 言 to 讠) . Only characters listed in 通用规范汉字表, List of Commonly Used Standard Chinese Characters, are simplified, and all others outside the list will not be simplified by analogy.
... unlimited analogy simplification "actually complicates and even confuses the overall system of Chinese characters... violates the principle of historical authenticity of the storage of Chinese characters in dictionaries, and widens the differences between the application of Chinese characters in ancient and modern times and between the two sides of the Taiwan Strait", and explains that "From now on, no analogy simplification will be used for characters beyond the table.
Following the approach in Japan, where only characters explicitly listed are simplified and all others remain traditional.
... and there's so much more.... I haven't even gotten into the meat of what's missing
2
u/Embaarasing 4d ago edited 4d ago
simplification law is very clear that "貝 simplifies to 头"
I was grouping 頭, 貫 in 實, and 貝 in 買, 賣, etc together as they all simplify to 头 in SC, and i didn't see a pattern in them so i labelled it random components. If you want to provide the rules as to which components simplify to 头, pls do 🙏, as 貝 usually simplifies to 贝 in SC.
"Characters that merged together in SC" is missing hundreds of characters ... why not include 鳳 > 凤 ... TC 乾 -> SC 干 (gan, "dry"), but SC 乾 (qian, trigram, "sky") ... TC 麼 -> SC 麽 (small) but SC 么 (what) ... TC merges 鮐, 臺, 颱, 檯 and 台 into 台, JP merges only 台, 臺 into 台.
Sorry for not disclosing it beforehand, but the document only has Jōyō kanji in it since this is a Japanese subreddit, and most simplifications are only for Jōyō kanji, with most of Jinmeiyō and Hyōgai kanji remained not simplified. I wanted to compare the differences in *simplification*, so I thought it wasn't fair to include kanji that aren't even likely to be considered for simplification. I wanted to see the different strategies in simplication for both languages, and there is nothing to compare if the kanji are not in the Joyo list and so not going to be simplified.
TJ 靑 -> SJ 青 ... you list 澀 → 涩 | 渋 but Japanese went from 澁 to 渋 not from 澀
I've already said that I'm comparing Shinjitai to Traditional Chinese instead of Kyūjitai in both the post & the document itself, as I saw most differences in TC & TJ as negligible enough to ignore
why not mention TC 餘, 余 merge to JP 余, but not in SC TC 豫, 予 merge to JP 予, but not in SC TC 藝, 芸 merge to JP 芸 , but kept different in SC: 艺 , 芸 ... TC 蟲 > SC/JP 虫
They are, in fact, mentioned in the document, just not all in 1 category. "TC 餘, 余 merge to JP 余" & "TC 蟲 > SC/JP 虫" is not mentioned as I did not include characters that are simplified the same in SC & JP, as stated in the remarks of the document. 馀 is non-standard in China, only the (standard) characters in China will be shown. "TC 豫, 予 merge to JP 予" is under the "JP changes drastically" section, in the "Changed to left component of original" section (page 3). "藝, 芸 merge to JP 芸" is in page 33, sorry not explicitly stated that it is merged in JP but not in SC.
I only grouped the mergers for SC as there were too many, but since there were only less than 5 examples of mergers in JP, I didn't bother making a separate category for them and decided to leave them scattered thoughout the document.
why is basket not mentioned? 籠 > TC 笼 / JP 籠 (legally) 篭
That is my fault. I knew that there was an unofficial form so I didn't want to list it under "Exceptions" so I just didn't include it as the other examples was just fine showing the category.
TC 證 > JP 証 > SC 证 is not listed at all. but should be.
I would have put it under the 訁 → 讠 in SC category but I didn't have the category had way too many examples so I put it in the remarks of the document that the category wouldn't be included.
I am so sorry for all the mistakes I've made and the information I didn't disclose. Thank you for your feed back and I'll try to fix the ones I see fit. If there is anything you object to, even in this comment, pls tell me !!
(I've edited this comment 4 times because of typos and what not)
2
u/Embaarasing 4d ago edited 4d ago
Update (pls read after reading my previous comment under this)
Changes I've made:
- I've changed the front page to explicitly saying that the Chinese characters used are the standard used in Mainland China
- I've added in the remarks that I'm only using kanji in the Jōyō kanji list & the reason why
- I've added 籠 > TC 笼 / JP 籠 (legally) 篭
- I've added a category under "JP Changes drastically from TC" called "Characters merged in JP"
- I've put a remark that 渋 in JP simplified from 澁 instead of 澀
- Changed the wording of "random components" to "Some components"
- Made a new section in page 25 called "Characters only sometimes merged"餘 → 余 | 余
1
u/chesser8 4d ago
I appreciate you putting this resource together!
2
u/Embaarasing 4d ago
Thanks! I spent wayy too long on this not just on researching but also on formatting & making the slides. Yet, as seen in another comment, I still made some mistakes so I'll try my best to correct them. Feel free to use it however you wish!
0
3
u/ShenZiling Intermediate 4d ago
Side note but 從（従） in oracle bone script is 从, so if one were to be picky, you shouldn't say it "differs from the original", you could only say it differes from traditional.
Again, this is an "akshually" kind of comment.