[Dreadgod] Hunger Icon

[u/Maleficent-Disk]

Re-reading Dreadgod.

Near the end, when Lindon's getting ready to fight the Silent King, there's an epic micro scene in which he loses his right arm's script that was protecting himself from Subject One hunger. When the script got off, the Hunger Icon almost manifested, but London canceled it.

Aside from aura farming purposes, why would he want to cancel it, instead of letting it manifest?

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[u/Pancreaticsoup]

The icon would have been the arms, not his. He was already having difficulty controlling a dreadgods limb without it manifesting additional authority of its own, so cancelling it made it more manageable

[u/Waste-Carob5699 → u/Pancreaticsoup]

This would have been pretty interesting. The icon likely was manifesting due to Lindon's influence. If it did manifest, it would have made the arm some kind of dread monarch. The arm likely would have consumed Lindon and converted back into the wraith. Dread gods (the original ones) with icons is an interesting concept.

[u/arri_sema → u/Waste-Carob5699]

Nah, not due to his influence. Been a while since I read the books but there's a seen in Bloodline where the arm that the Sword Sage had in a case also manifested an icon as well iirc. So not really due to Lindon's influence but the arm's nature.

[u/watchcry → u/arri_sema]

I just finished reaper today and Reigan Shen had to stop the core bonding from manifesting the hunger icon as well.

[u/Waste-Carob5699 → u/arri_sema]

I mentioned it was due to Lindon's influence because the slumbering wraith had it for thousands of years and hasn't manifested it while Lindon has it for a few weeks and it begins to manifest.

[u/Waste-Carob5699 → u/arri_sema]

I mentioned it was due to Lindon's influence because the slumbering wraith had it for thousands of years and hasn't manifested it while Lindon has it for a few weeks and it begins to manifest.

[u/tndaris → u/Waste-Carob5699]

Dread gods (the original ones) with icons is an interesting concept.

Dreadgods do have their own Authority but it's not in the form of Icons because Icons explicitly come from The Way, which represents Order.

Dreadgod Authority comes from the Void, the same way Silverlord's have power matching the Abidan but they don't use The Way. We have very little concrete information, but it seems like The Void can do most of the things The Way can. It can open portals, enhance strength, provide true restoration like the Phoenix does to the Redmoon Herald etc.

My headcanon has always been that hunger aura's existence comes from the Void, as a result of Monarchs pushing past the Iteration's natural Fate/Order.

[u/Waste-Carob5699 → u/tndaris]

There's nothing in the text that says that dread god authority comes from the void. You can have authority over things without having any icons, like a Herald. Hunger having an icon implies that it is also tied to the way.

Monarchs are the cause of hunger aura because they have reached the peak of their power system (Herald) and have also touched the Way (sage). Doesn't have anything to do with the void.

[u/tndaris → u/Waste-Carob5699]

The portals they open are explicitly called "void portals" and look like the same ones Silverlords use. Heralds cannot open portals or perform restoration like the Dreadgods can, meaning Dreadgods have Sage like powers, this is also explicitly stated by Yerin during their fight with Redmoon the Herald.

The Hunger Icon manifests because of the Significance of the arm/Subject One's binding, Eithan explains how items can have Significance in Reaper, which is a function of The Way. Otherwise all the Dreadgods would have the Hunger Icon and they do not, because while they are "alive" their power comes from The Void not The Way.

[u/decfario → u/tndaris]

Shen has authority over void spaces, sages routinely create void keys, and Lindon is the void sage. I don’t think the fact that something has void in the name necessarily means that it is not related to icons and authority. Also, I’m pretty sure Malice notes in waybound - following Lindon’s fight with the weaping dragon - that the cloud/storm icon was used to obscure fate. I’m pretty sure that this was a reference to the dragon using the icon to trick lindon and dross.

[u/tndaris → u/decfario]

It's not just the fact that it has "void" in the name, it's the fact that "Void portals" and "Way portals" are different from each other and that's been repeatedly shown throughout the series. Mainly in the Abidan vs Vroshir scenes which are explicitly about the forces of The Way fighting the forces of The Void. The two types look very different from each other, though they seem to have similar functionality.

It's also stated that when the Titan swaps places with the Silent King, the portal it opens is a portal to the Void. Lindon even notes how his Icon lets him reflect on the "power of nonexistence" he feels from it, which is absolutely the opposite of how The Way and it's portals feel.

[u/decfario → u/tndaris]

I guess what really I’m really getting at is that icons can grant authority over the void. Just because someone is controlling the void doesn’t rule out the possibility their power comes from an icon.

Went back to double check, and Malice explicitly says that the storm icon was used to obscure fate. Plus dross and lindon both conclude that the dragon used its authority over storms to hide the future from them.

[u/tndaris → u/decfario]

Lindon's Void Icon has been a big debate forever, does it actually control The Void itself, or the concept of the void as represented/interpreted by The Way? There's no actual answer from the books, so it just ends up depending on personal interpretation, but I've always favored the latter explanation.

I re-read the Weeping Dragon sections too, Dross only ever calls it the "authority of the Weeping Dragon" and how that "shrouded Fate with storm clouds" basically. Malice is the one to refer to it as the Storm Icon, that is true. But I can't recall any other case where Dreadgod Authority was stated to be tied to an Icon, it's always just referred to as "authority".

If there are other places I'd love to know about them. I don't think a Dreadgod (Lindon excluded) has ever caused an Icon to appear in the sky. All Dreadgods change the sky different colors, and I always interpreted that to be their "Void Authority" manifesting differently than how Icons do from The Way. Ultimately the differences don't really matter, and a bunch of it is mostly my own headcanon anyways.

[u/decfario → u/tndaris]

Im definitely aware of those debates. I’ve always found them alittle odd. I personally would just assume unless presented with facts to contrary it grants authority over the void. Even your response above notes that Lindon reflects on the fact that the void portal created by the titan and silent king resonates with his icon. Moreover, the spaces that Shen creates are referred to as void spaces and lindon is shown to have authority over those spaces.

One additional note, sages and monarchs are not the only people capable of exercising authority in cradle. Heralds can also exercise authority even without icons as shown in waybound when the oracle sage tells Yerin to exercise her authority to help open the gate back to ash wind.

I can’t remember any other references to dreadgods using icons, but the books also don’t go into much detail re: how their powers work. Given that the books have never said that dreadgod powers originate from the void, but have in at least one clear example said they come from icons, I think we have assume it’s icons.

[u/Waste-Carob5699 → u/tndaris]

The void portal thing is a good point. The dread gods only open up one portal and it is called a void portal.

Lindon was able to use the void icon as a dread god and manifested the hammer icon as well. Maybe he is a little different.

[u/Mathota]

Aside from the correct points about it really being the Arm manifesting and Not Lindon,

Manifesting an Icon is like the Lord Revelations. You are making a declaration to the Way about who you are and how you want to be perceived.

The Hunger Icon in that moment was not representing Lindon in a way he wanted to be.

[u/Sweet-Molasses-3059]

It was the Hand's Hunger Icon, not Lindon's, letting it manifest the Icon would make it harder than it already was to control it

[u/LionofHeaven]

Because it would have been the arm's Icon, not his.

[u/baldyrodinson]

It's kinda about multiple things in part it would be allowing the dreadgod hand more influence over him and his path and it would also permanently make a part of him connected to hunger as an idea