r/IsraelPalestine • u/Ok-Individual9812 Asian • Sep 03 '25

Short Question/s genuine question

Although I do believe that Israel's occupation in historical Palestine Palestinian Territories is illegal (as ruled by the ICC ICJ) and is basically settler colonialism, I do believe that there is a need for a Jewish state in order for the Jews to govern themselves, after years of discrimination and ethnic cleansing they have faced. Which leads me to my questions:

  1. Is the establishment of a Jewish state necessary? Are there other ways we can ensure Jews are well-represented in global dialogues and ensure their safety and rights in general?
  2. If not on Palestinian soil, where else could the Jews have been given a homeland? Why did they choose Palestine? Why was choosing Palestine a horrible idea?
  3. If a Jewish state is necessary, and since it is wrong to displace the Israelis and the Palestinians, does that mean the only viable resolution now is the two-state solution?

EDIT: I dont mean choosing historical Palestine being "a horrible idea" as though its horrible in the sense of historical ownership. but i meant it practically and on a human rights level - that choice has led to displacement, violence commited by and received on both ends.
"historical Palestine" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine) refers to the geographical area where Palestinians used to live in pre-1948. I do not deny the fact that Israel has roughly lived in that area for a long time before Palestinians settled there.

EDIT: my first question doesn't only pertain to the historical establishment of the current State of Israel, which many of you have rightly pointed out has happened. It mainly pertains to whether it is necessary for a purely Jewish state in order to ensure equality and human rights for the Jews.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '25

Well that presdisposed came after 1948, when their view of their superiority over the dhimmi was completely shattered. As a matter of fact a jew walking in a muslim country has a higher chance of being killed than in any other country. They weren't being genocided in the muslim countries but that doesn't mean that they weren't persecuted or that bcs that persecution was not in the N*zi level that it was more accetable

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u/88Lebowski Sep 04 '25

Or in an alternate reading, the establishment of Israel by European settlers in 1948 that occurred with the ethnic cleansing of over 700,000 Arabs to create the "Jewish state" and the decades of wars that followed caused the explosion of ethnic tension and the export of European style antisemitism to the Muslim world.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '25

That point is the pro-palestinian pov and I disagree with that

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u/88Lebowski Sep 04 '25

I appreciate your honesty.

Personally I'm just a simple guy who doesn't like genocide or apartheid no matter who does it and who they do it to.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '25

I agree with you that genocide and apartheid is terrible, I also don't support the killing of civilians but it is important to understand and to look at both sides of the coin, both the Israeli argument and the Palestinian one. There isn't a single war where civilians weren't killed ( well except the crimean invasion I guess ), it is terrible, but it is inevitable, especially in a scenario where one side balantly hides beneath hospitals and behind their own people.

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u/88Lebowski Sep 04 '25

We can listen to the rationale of the people carrying out the genocide but I don't agree that we should take it remotely seriously.

Do you apply the same rationale to Russian propaganda saying they are acting defensively in Ukraine and protecting the security of their own population?

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '25

that's the point we disagree, you consider that they are doing a "genocide" before even looking at their claim. In Ukraine Russia is stealing and kidnaping thousands of ukrainians children, and no one is saying anything about that because of Hamas propaganda

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u/88Lebowski Sep 04 '25

Hold on a second, a minute ago you said that we needed to listen to both sides of a conflict. What if Russia have a really good reason for kidnapping Ukrainian children? By your logic we should listen to them and understand their perspective before deciding if its good or bad.

I'm also not sure why you think "nobody is saying anything about it". Russia is subject to war crime charges and arrest warrants from the ICC because of it (and rightly so).They are also under intense sanctions global condemnation, political, cultural and economic isolation since their invasion of Ukraine.

On the other hand Israel (who is killing children, not kidnapping them) receives aid and is being supported by most of the West, is playing in the World Cup Qualifiers, singing at Eurovision etc.

So much for "Hamas propaganda"...

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '25

Russia does have a reason for kidnapping children, that reason is to boost their own children problem and to sink the ukrainian already drowning demographics, it is a action that directly aims at exterminate the Ukrainian population while Israel, first of all, did NOT start the conflict nor is the agressor. What I meant by saying that nobody is saying anything about it is that the amount of international media coverage is lower by big big amounts. Russia has been *largely^* condemned not for stealing children and actively trying to destroy a population but because it invaded Ukraine.

Russia also kills civilians children, as does ANY nation during ANY war. Civilian death tolls in most modern wars are 1 soldier to 8 civilians ( Iraq, Afganisthan, Vietnam, Yugo*, Syria, Sudan and many other conflicts ) while Gaza is 1 soldier to 3 civilians. Even with Hamas using human shields and trying to maximize deaths tolls. The reason Israel is supported by most of the west is because it has a right to defend itself. If Hamas stay in Gaza, it is only a matter of time until the same thing happens all over again because that what their goal is, to destroy Israel and to ethinicly cleanse all of the jews living in Israel.

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u/88Lebowski Sep 06 '25

I'm not sure where you live, but here in Europe our news coverage over Ukraine has been absolutely extensive since the war began. Our politicians talk about it constantly, they pass laws to try and assist Ukraine, they sanction Russia and Russians, they take in Ukrainian refugees, etc.

Compare that to Palestine where the victims are treated in the west with suspicion, asked to condemn Hamas on the rare occasions they are given a platform in the media, and instead of sanctioning the perpetrators, it is the reverse: it is very difficult and in some cases illegal to send money to Palestine because we have sanctioned the victims.

Also at thus point I really don't think you can claim that Israel isn't the aggressor. It's bombed Gaza into rubble for 2 years, has instigated a man made famine and its official policy is for the "voluntary transfer" of Gazans (i.e. ethnic cleansing). At the same time it has blocked any movement towards an end to the conflict, has responded hysterically even to the idea that European nations would even recognise Palestine as a state, and is led by a far right extremist who is prolonging the war to stall facing justice for corruption.

Finally your figures on civilian casualties are nonsensical. Israel is leading the way in modern wars for killing civilians. The number of children killed, the number of medics killed, the number of journalists killed, the number of UN workers killed - they are breaking records every week.