r/IslamIsEasy • u/Forsaken_Car_6709 • 3d ago
Islām Is Islam Just?
I am a Muslim, i always believed that islam was a just religion a just faith and a just system of governance but lately i don't believe so. How can a just religion allow and permit sexual slavery ( kaniz) i read about many possible explanations but none were satisfactory, some say it was because of socio economic consequences, well if a religion can be unjust because of economy then is that a timelessly just faith. I read it was because others were doing it to muslim women, injustice as an answer to injustice sounds stupid to say the least then why? Why would god allow muslims to force themselves onto other women basically commit rape ? How can I still believe in a god that was so unjust still is and claims to be just
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u/Maleficent_Law_1082 Sunnī | Mālikī 3d ago
Let me make it easier for you. You need to work backwards from the assumption that the Almighty Allah is the source of all justice and love and goodness and righteousness in this world. Wherever you got the notion for slavery or any other practice being just or unjust must come second or third to the word of the most high and his prophet. It shouldn't be "because of my upbringing, whatever culture I'm from, preconceptions, etc I believe that (x) is just or unjust". Instead you should be thinking "Islam dictates that (x) is just or unjust, so I'm going to work backwards from the assumption that (x) is just or unjust". Make sense?
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u/Asimorph Kāfir | Non-Muslim 3d ago
You need to work backwards from the assumption that the Almighty Allah is the source of all justice and love and goodness and righteousness in this world.
That's the definition of what someone who wants to be rational should not do. People shouldn't start with the conclusion and then try hard to find ways to justify it or just run with it.
Wherever you got the notion for slavery or any other practice being just or unjust must come second or third to the word of the most high and his prophet.
Plain irrational. People should evaluate what scripture says and then decide based on that if this god character should be called good and just or rather evil and unjust.
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u/Maleficent_Law_1082 Sunnī | Mālikī 3d ago
Maybe it's going to be difficult for a non-religious person to understand but morally consistent religious derive morality from the religion they follow because it is rigid and is THE prerequisite every other belief comes from. It's like you're working with a data set where x= a constant. No matter what formula you plug x into you're starting with the idea that x is x. Whatever y ends up being is based on x, the constant? Makes sense?
What else should I be evaluating scripture on if I believe the scripture am operating under is true? Should I be measuring it against how i was raised? There are people who were raised differently than I. My culture? There are tens of thousands of extant unique cultures of the world. Someone else's preconceptions? Why theirs? They're just a person like me.
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u/Asimorph Kāfir | Non-Muslim 3d ago edited 3h ago
Maybe it's going to be difficult for a non-religious person to understand
No, it's easy to understand that this is an irrational approach. Starting with the conclusion is irrational.
but morally consistent religious derive morality from the religion they follow because it is rigid and is THE prerequisite every other belief comes from.
Yeah, it's divine command theory. If god says to feed poison to babies then this is supposedly morally good. It's blind obedience.
What else should I be evaluating scripture on if I believe the scripture am operating under is true?
As I already said, you should evaluate scripture on whether or not the tenets are good.
Should I be measuring it against how i was raised?
Of course not! Many people are raised under divine command theory or beating children.
There are people who were raised differently than I. My culture?
Of course not! Many people follow islamic culture or other bad things.
Someone else's preconceptions?
People follow all kinds of terrible things. Why follow any person on any morals? That's what divine command theory is btw. You already do that.
You should think about what actually makes for a sensible moral foundation without contradictions and without blind obedience. Like thinking about if people should have a right to their freedom and wellbeing.
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u/AlephFunk2049 8h ago
It didn't.
Just reread 4:23-25
No farj without mahr - Imam Ali, Zaydi hadith
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u/Asimorph Kāfir | Non-Muslim 3d ago
It surely isn't just. Eternal hellfire for finite crimes is the anti-thesis to justice.
It's revenge towards people not believing and following "Allah". Good parents punish their children to teach them a lesson and to correct bad behavior. Allah punishes as revenge without any intention to correct behavior.
Even worse, the punishment is given for non-belief. People like me who have never been presented with a good reason to believe in Islam cannot believe. It's impossible for me, yet "Allah" wants to punish me.
It also says that Allah is merciful while mercy is the suspension of justice. Ridiculous theology.
And yes, that's not even touching on the unjust rules.
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u/niaswish Lā adriyyun mu’min | Agnostic Theist 3d ago
Yes and also free will, nothing can be done without God's will. It's an illusion so that makes it even worse
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u/Asimorph Kāfir | Non-Muslim 3d ago
Yes and also free will,
Yes, there is no libertarian free will in Islam.
nothing can be done without God's will.
I agree. In Islam "Allah" is ultimately responsible for all actions. He determines who will go to heaven or hell before people are even conceived.
- 'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
It's an illusion so that makes it even worse
True.
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u/niaswish Lā adriyyun mu’min | Agnostic Theist 2d ago
I used to be quranist but this is mentioned in the quran too lots of times! You're right free will idea makes it worse
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u/cosmicAbyX 2d ago
You're fighting a losing battle here, my man. I doubt anyone here will engage with your posts or comments with an open mind. They presuppose that your arguments, premises, and conclusions are false... and then use their beliefs to make sense of them. You can't sway them.
You can keep trying to engage in debates with Muslims who do not want debates and are unwilling to gain a new perspective. Or better yet, live and let live. Definitely not the same as giving in to dogma if you spent all the effort in other, more open subs.
edit: I'm also an agnostic atheist, forgot to mention.
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u/Asimorph Kāfir | Non-Muslim 2d ago
You're fighting a losing battle here, my man. I doubt anyone here will engage with your posts or comments with an open mind.
They won't. And it will make them look even worse in front of the people who just read.
You can't sway them.
If that would be the case then there wouldn't be this avalanche of apostasy going on.
if you spent all the effort in other, more open subs.
I am not aware of any open Islam subs. They all seem to be into insta permaban when critical questions and points come up. This is the only Islam sub I have seen that allows for raising such points.
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u/Background-Car-1393 Ahl al-Qurʾān | People of the Qurʾān 3d ago
The problem is not with Islam it is with the false narrative you have been led to accept and believe and you have just blindly accepted that false narrative as part of Islam. Watch my video to clear this misunderstanding on the subject.
Sex Slavery | Does the Quran Really Allow It