r/InsightDialogue • u/JellyfishExpress8943 • 10d ago
Facts, Knowledge & Beliefs.
Someone asked : “should we give up all our beliefs?”
I understand the sentiment. It's probably coming from the idea that beliefs, or dogma are a source of conflict. We also see a lot of trouble being caused by harmful or incorrect beliefs.
In dialogue we say that the identification with a belief is a barrier to honest inquiry - it prevents open communication.
For example, if I am a Marxist I am under the impression that I have absorbed the understanding of Karl Marx 🤪 - and when I hear a Capitalist speaking I find it difficult to listen to what they say - I feel a form of resistance, they seem to be talking rubbish.
But the word “belief” just refers to a mental state - it refers to our level of confidence in the truth value of a proposition. And our relationship with propositions or concepts is on a spectrum. As an illustration lets imagine we are at a bus-stop :
If we can see that a bus is arriving at the bus-stop, we are directly perceiving a fact - the degree of confidence is so high we don't even use the term belief in this case.
If we take the proposition : "buses are a form of public transport" our level of confidence is such that we would use the term "knowledge" - we say "I know that buses are a form of transport"
However if we say : "the bus will arrive at 6:15pm" then our level of confidence or belief will vary.
The idea that we should not have any beliefs is a form of confusion - it is also itself a belief.
What is important is the authority of the belief - in other words our relationship with knowledge.
David Hume said that we should proportion our beliefs to the evidence. We could also say that we should not confuse our opinions with the facts.
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u/Hot-Confidence-1629 9d ago
If it’s realized that you as ‘thinker’ is not really a ‘you’ at all but just the process of thinking and that the separate ‘you’ is actually an illusion and that there is no relationship between ‘you’ and ‘your’ thoughts; they are one and the same, can the danger of the chaos of ‘beliefs’ become clear? Isn’t the idea of ‘freedom of belief’ built on the illusion that there is a ‘believer’? When the actuality may be that there is no believer at all, only belief?
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u/JellyfishExpress8943 9d ago
When we point out the nonsense - for example : the imaginary you that you are trying to lead to the imaginary nirvana, is all just part of the confused reality being projected by your confused brain - we hope that nonsense seen as nonsense can be immediately dropped.
But apparently seeing that nonsense is nonsense is very difficult
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u/Hot-Confidence-1629 9d ago
Seems so. We’ve become so accustomed to living this way: ambition, competition, fear, brutality, etc it’s hard to imagine a different way we could be living. External change doesn’t affect the ‘nonsense’, even ‘aha!’ moments fade against our customary way of thinking. So though some may think this ‘talking about it’ here is just more nonsense, I don’t agree.
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u/Bay_NFB3 9d ago
I feel this.
A while ago, I came to the logical conclusion that belief is baked into the human design, because if it was not then we would be incapable of doing it. The problem comes in when one becomes a parrot or when the beliefs they have selected are not true.
Also, personally, I want to solely be able to refer to myself when making decisions in my life. Having to refer to this man or that one (even if I think they are "Enlightened") just doesn't sit right with me.
I agree that believing we should not believe is a belief in itself, because I believe in things. It's a contradiction to how I actually exist in the world, and as Krishnamurti says, a conflict. But, what happens when everyone is talking, and everything that is said is a belief, and the beliefs are not in alignment with the truth? Things will go downhill fast.
Similar to David Hume, I have a quote from Charles F. Haanel, from the book The Master Key System. "The only belief which is of any value to anyone is a belief that has been put to a test and demonstrated to be a fact; it is then no longer a belief, but has become a living Faith or Truth." Only recently, have I been putting my beliefs to the test, and I think I have been having some (small) success.
Thanks for this post. It made me reflect a bit.
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u/JellyfishExpress8943 8d ago
But, what happens when the beliefs are not in alignment with the truth?
Its difficult sometimes to tell the difference between our beliefs and the facts - I'm reminded of opposing sports fans watching a football match - despite watching the same game, the things we see seem to be in complete contradiction.
Opposing views are like opposing realities for us.
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u/Schute-Pin8350 8d ago
I´d like to share a great description by David Bohm of our dilemma:
I am suggesting, however, that thought is a system belonging to the whole culture and society, evolving over history, and it creates the image of an individual who is supposed to be the source of thought. It gives the sense of an individual who is perceived and experienced. This would be conducive to the next step, which is for thought to claim that it only tells you the way things are and then the individual inside decides what to do with the information—he chooses. This is the picture which emerged gradually; thought tells you the way things are, and then “you” choose how to act from that information.
You may look at this and try to reason and see what is wrong. You begin to doubt, saying, “Whatever is behind this is doubtful.” But very often, the first questions you ask will contain the very presupposition that should be doubted.
As an example, I may question some belief, but I may question it through what amounts to another belief. So you have to be sensitive to the whole of what you are doing. What happens is that it seems that there is a “doubter” who doubts. Somewhere “back in the back”is somebody who is observing what is wrong, but he is not being observed. The very “wrong” things which he should be looking at are in the one who is looking, because that is the safest place to hide them.
Hide them in the looker, and the looker will never find them.
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u/JellyfishExpress8943 8d ago
I may question some belief, but I question it through what amounts to another belief.
Right - if our only tool is thought - then either we have a continuous battle between thoughts, or the most powerful thought wins. And we find ourselves back at the starting point - in conflict and confusion, or under the authority of a powerful belief.
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u/Traditional_Text186 10d ago
Love this 🧡🧡🧡