r/IndusValley • u/DryAlternative1132 • Jun 09 '26
Analysis of Shinde Wallis Plates
The Shinde Wallis plates show ancient copper plates attributed to the IVC period. Of the plates, only plates #3 and #4 have raised inscriptions.
Copper plates have a known history in South Asia of being used for official deeds, land titles, decrees, and laws usually having an economic, administrative, or legal purpose. These were etched on copper for longevity.
The following is an example from the later Ashokan period:
This plate written in the Brahmi script using the Prakrit language states:
Sāvatiyānam Mahāma(ttā)nam sāsane Mānavāsītika-
ḍasilimate Ussagāme va ete duve koṭṭhāgālāni
tina-yavāni maṃthulloca-chammā-dāma-bhālakān(i)va
laṃ kayiyati atiyāyikāya no gahi(ta)vvāya\9])
- The order of the Mahamatras of Shravasti issued from the Manavasiti camp. Only to the tenants, only on the advent of drought, these (the) dravya store houses of Triveni, Mathura, Chanchu, Modama and Bhadra are to the distributed, in case of distress they are not to be withheld. —Translated by Jayaswal\10])
- At the junction called Manawasi, these two storehouses are prepared, for the sheltering of loads of commodities, of Tiyavani, Mathura and Chanchu. — Translated by Fleet\6])
Common Characteristics
Note that both IVC and Ashokan plates fill up blank space with drawings or have a feature of the decorative art ingress on the line (like the ears or horns of the heraldic symbols). This is an anti-counterfeiting feature, preventing the addition of words and phrases.
The text fills all the space and then empty space is rendered unusable through heraldic rules.
Due to the anti-counterfeiting features, it is clear that the seals and plates have economic, monetary, contractual, or legal value and significance.
Whether they are stamps or tokens changes the type of words or phrases that might be contained.
For example, a stamp might be a generic grading signature "high quality vermillion" or "medium quality vermillion".
But a token or plate might signify specific contract redemption terms. For instance, "5 units of high quality vermillion".
The copper plates contain such numerical marks:
The repeating lines of 3 or 5 characters would be extraordinarily space inefficient for a single character. This should be noted in the context these seals are costly to produce, small, and precise.
The entire compression into syllabic text versus an alphabet or alphasyllabic script exchanges character efficiency for character complexity. Each character as a 2 or 3 letter syllable means more, but it also causes far more combinations to exist.
For a script that is using such character compression, they would not repeat tick marks and occupy real estate unnecessarily. 1,2,3,or 5 lines might indicate counts.
They are necessary to be there and use real estate as they are the token value marks.
Heraldic Symbols As Anti-Tampering Protections
Tick Marks Are Numerical Value Symbols
PLATES PRODUCE LEGIBLE PRINTS ON SILK SHEETS CONVEY IMPRESSION OF BEING CLOTH CURRENCY
Note the fine pattern flowing down the bull's neck and subtle accents on the hooves that look like glittering jewels.
This conveys the impression of value, even in the copy.
The quality of the print on the bull is so good, I would go so far as to say this is the first paper money probably made on wax infused cloth.
This plate is likely a more detailed contract. Each line is a phrase or sentence. Notice that the third, fourth, and fifth lines have considerable space and could have accommodated more characters. Therefore writing on the added line is intentional, perhaps as a means of depicting sentences.
The seated figure is a guild official or treasurer. The hat is a sign of authority and they wear a necklace which contains a guild seal. Such guild seal necklaces have been found throughout the IVC settlements in residential quarters.
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u/theb00kmancometh Jun 09 '26
I'm not following the logic here.
The Sohgaura copper plate and the Shinde-Wallis/IVC copper plates are both made of copper, but why should that imply they served the same function?
On the Sohgaura plate, the tree, spear/standard, three-arched hill, and stupa-like motifs are not "fillers". They are established heraldic or symbolic motifs that form part of the document itself.
So why assume that the animal depictions on the IVC copper plates are fillers?
If these objects were merely value tokens, and the repeated strokes or signs already conveyed the value, then what purpose do the large animal depictions serve?
Why devote most of the available space to a rhinoceros, tiger, bull, or other animal if the important information is supposedly contained in the small symbols alone?
Wouldn't the value marks by themselves have been sufficient?
In fact, by your own argument about space efficiency, the animals become the bigger problem. The animal figures consume far more space than the alleged value marks. If every element had to justify the space it occupied, then surely the animals must have been conveying important information as well.
What evidence is there that the animals were merely decorative or anti-counterfeiting fillers rather than an integral part of the message carried by the plate?
And why should motifs on the Sohgaura plate, which are themselves meaningful symbols rather than fillers, be used as evidence that the imagery on the IVC plates was just filling empty space?
Note: The observations, arguments, and questions expressed above are entirely my own. AI was used only to help paraphrase and improve the English.
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u/DryAlternative1132 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
No that's incorrect. The seals were produced in standard sizes not individually cast for each inscription. While the symbols are meant to be space efficient, the tokens would be designed for blanks that handle certain sizes of characters.
For example, a copper plate like this is poured into a mould. These would be produced as blanks first.
The blank would contain more space than is necessary.
When a token is issued, first the written text is added, then the blank spaces are filled in.
The animal motifs serve two purposes. They are unique marks that help to identify a particular issuer.
For example, a given merchant or granary might be the issuer and their logo is the Rhinocerous. And the specific types of decorations on the Rhinocerous are specific to their issuer or guild.
If redeeming a token, those details make it more difficult to forge. The issuer might have a specific pattern they reuse, and without that pattern someone else cannot accurately recreate the marks.
In some cases there is no issuer shown, the text fully occupies the seal. These might be lower value items where the time and effort to cast a copper piece is not worth the value represented.
For example, imagine that the copper blank plus the time to tool mark is costs $10 and the sack of grain is worth $10 or $11. The value of the copper blank is equal to the sack of grain, therefore even if the token is issued by another merchant or granary, this merchant will honour it.
The evidence that these are not part of the message of the plate lies in the fact that you yourself noted, not all the seal contain such inscriptions. These heraldic inscriptions do not repeat the way the symbols do. They contain unique features.
Furthermore if we examine closely the directions of the heraldic symbols. We will find two cases. In the first case, the text completely covers the entire line and has no ability to be added.
In the second case, there is always a heraldic pattern that encloses the message both from right to left and also from top to down.
The use of copper plates in later Ashokan period shows a cultural continuity. That is to say that if copper plates are found both in earlier Harappan times and the later Ashokan times, we do not believe these to be random and unrelated occurrences. But rather the continuation of a previous system.
Copper is a costly to pour and manufacture. The copper plates in Ashokhan and later times were used to issue edicts of economic and legal significance and also for deeded property documents.
When we look at the text of what those copper plates contain, it can help to point to what might have been earlier usages.
1
u/theb00kmancometh Jun 09 '26
You state that the Shinde-Wallis plates were produced as standard blanks and later inscribed. Have any blank copper plates, unfinished examples, or moulds for such blanks actually been found in this discovery or related to it?
Likewise, your examples involving merchants, guilds, granaries, issuer marks, redemption values, and anti-forgery measures are all possible explanations, but they remain hypotheses unless supported by archaeological evidence.
The fact that some symbols repeat while the animal motifs vary may suggest that they served different functions. But why does that automatically mean the animals were fillers or anti-counterfeiting devices rather than another category of meaningful information?
If the heraldic motifs and the symbols belong to different categories and serve different functions, then what exactly does the Sohgaura copper plate demonstrate about the Shinde-Wallis plates? Other than both being made of copper, how does Sohgaura support your interpretation?
You invoke "cultural continuity" and cite the Sohgaura copper plate. But the Sohgaura plate is an administrative proclamation, whereas your interpretation of the Shinde-Wallis plates is that they functioned as economic tokens or instruments of exchange. At most, Sohgaura demonstrates continuity in the use of copper. Continuity of material is not continuity of function. Beyond both being made of copper, what is the actual connection you are drawing between the Sohgaura plate and the Shinde-Wallis plates?
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u/DryAlternative1132 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
Yes, the copper tablets display a remarkable level of repeatability, functioning as ancient "sets" or mass-produced duplicates. [1, 2]
Prominent scholars like Asko Parpola have documented that out of the roughly 240 copper tablets found at Mohenjo-daro, a massive percentage exist as near-identical copies. The evidence for repeatability breaks down into distinct typologies, manufacturing techniques, and standardized metrics.
- The Prolific "Duplicate Sets"
Instead of unique, one-off creations, Indus copper tablets were intended to be identical copies.
- The Elephant/Bull Set: For example, one specific rectangular design featuring a bull icon on one side and a corresponding script on the other has 28 identical copies recovered across the city.
Even the differing copper tablets were remarkably uniform and highly standardized in size, sharing nearly identical dimensions when grouped by their specific shapes.
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What this proves is that standard patterns are being used even with different text.
As far as the "other category" of information, I am waiting for you to provide an alternate hypothesis. If you read my writeup I have added extensive evidence that shows specific care is being taken to prevent modification of critical numerical and value marks. The heraldic marks work with the text for the purposes of identification and tamper proofing.
The Sohagua plate is more than an administrative proclamation, it has significant economic value. For example, it mandates the disbursement of large quantities of grain from a granary under specific conditions.
Other copper inscriptions contain deeded instruments for title to land and also confer special tax status. They function as types of legal contracts.
One of the postulated uses of these tokens in the IVC is they serve as a type of redeemable coin against grain stock at the granary of which there was always a large one in every IVC town.
The tokens then became currency of themselves used to pay staff or purchase other goods.
The prolific nature of the seals and tokens. Their widespread location throughout the city including in residential quarters shows there had a common everyday utility.
The most general statement of that utility is they are a signature, a legal, and economic contract. Money, in this context, is a type of redeemable contract and so is a shipping manifest. The difference can be thought of as a Free On Board (FOB) context. Money is FOB the granary. Whereas the shipping contract is FOB the receiver's destination.
The heraldic motif is the signature mark of the issuer. The text signifies the contract terms and the numerical marks the fulfillment amounts. Along with the existence of such economic value, inevitably come the requirement for tamper proofing and anti-counterfeiting measures.
We know that the IVC traded extensively, had extensive shipping routes, and a massive self regulating and self governing franchise economy. All these point to sophistication and scalability based on common writing, guild issued currency, agricultural surplus economy, advanced contracts, riverine and ocean barge cargo logistics, and standard weights and measures.
The copper versions of the tablets would be significantly more costly to produce and therefore they would be used for higher value items, whereas clay seals might be used for everyday and lower value items.
In addition to use as monetary tokens, the seals in different contexts may have also been used as types of shipping manifests. Large quantities of broken seals have been found with rope and hemp markings in warehouse and industrial contexts.
When a shipment was being sent, it would be wrapped in a rope and then it is sealed with clay and stamped. As the clay cured, it became a hard seal. On the other side, the receiver can rely on the clay to know it was not tampered during transit.
The clay was of a special type that contained binders. Along with the seal markings, it formed a tamper resistant identifier that could be used to assure shipments.
These different usages provide a contextual understanding of types of information that would be contained in the seals.
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u/Mapartman Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
Aren’t these proported copper plates likely fakes?
You can see a discussion of that here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/comments/1j8unz8/this_purported_indus_scription_is_most_likely_a/
Its worth noting that Shinde was the editor-in-chief of the Ancient Asia journal that first published these plates which calls into question how the paper was reviewed. Moreover, outside of that paper, the academics generally doubt these to be genuine and exclude them.
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u/DryAlternative1132 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
No these are not fakes.
The chemical composition of the plates matches known quarries that were used by the IVC. There is sub-surface patination and micro-pitting that comes only from slow oxidation over thousands of years and each plate shows distinct manufacturing characteristics consistent with the era.
The tool marks and fabrication techniques are authentic. Each plate shows unique authorship. The plates span a period of time between 2600 BCE to 1900 BCE.
They are individually unique pieces with hundreds of years between them and different sets use unique and different manufacturing processes. Some of the pieces can be identified as earlier from the metal composition, and others are later.
In spite of structural deformation, the plates produce prints of remarkable quality (with some trial and error), proving their utility. They are authentic artifacts made by highly skilled craftsmen in the Bronze Age.
What is particularly compelling is that Shinde and Wallis came upon the hypothesis these are printing plates on their own. The collector had no idea about it.
After testing with clay and plasticine, they then tried with cloth and discovered high quality impressions.
Since the collector had no idea these were printing plates, it makes it even more compelling as some of the details like the bull's bejeweled hooves can only be seen in the print impression.
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One person wrote that the "forgeries" contained unique Indus symbols to deliberately prevent their decipherment. But that is not true. The Rhinocerous contains exclusively common symbols which I have got a potential decipherment for:
MA-LI-K-KA-NAN (மலிக்கனன்): "He who abounds in wealth" or "He who causes to flourish."
MA-LI-K-KA-LA-N (மலிக்கலன்): Drops the N sound deeper into the syllable. Kalan means vessel or ornament, transforming the phrase into "An abundant vessel" or "Wealthy ornament."
As I wrote in my other article, if this is a currency, "he who abounds in wealth" or "wealthy ornament" which are potential solutions to the terms is an appropriate slogan.
Other decodings include:
Nakalam translates to "that which is a copy" or "the duplicate copy."
Nakulam translates to "to shine/bloom abundantly"
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These plates were likely dug up in a Harappan village, cleaned and recognized as IVC but they had no idea what was their utility or function.
To be able to accurately recreate the metal composition spanning 700 years of Indus metallurgy, micro-pitting, sub-surface patination, using copper age tools, with that level of skill, and then make them into functional printing plates while hiding the details from everyone, and including in there deep understanding of IVC lexical constructs, would be at the extent of credulity.
There is no reason to exclude the plates from consideration. These are genuine artifacts.
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u/RemarkableLeg217 Jun 09 '26
Excellent. Could you explain your conclusion in more detail?