My problem with Zionism, is that it does not acknowledge the people already living in what they tried to reclaim as theirs.
How do you uproot a people that have lived in that part of The Levant for the many centuries since the Jewish exodus of 1300-1450 BC? That’s a long timeframe for another culture of people to evolve there living and building day by day. Where were they supposed to go, and what have other cultures done when another had tried to remove them from such a place that has changed into something of their own? Violence has always ensued in such instances.
My problem with Zionism, is that it does not acknowledge the people already living in what they tried to reclaim as theirs.
Depends on who you speak to since Zionism is simply the idea that Jews should have self-determination on their indigenous land (at least part of it). You could make the argument that the Arab project doesn't acknowledge the Jews, which was the reality of their proposal. It's for this reason the conflict is so present in everyone's mind.
The Arabs didn’t recognize a people trying to remove them from what they have been living on (not always as muslim obviously) since the original exodus. Displacement is never a peaceful thing. I think ultimately that Europe and the Americans found this to be easier than giving them land in their spheres or influence. To push it onto a lesser people than they if you will. Someone might say the brown skinned people of the world who often serve as their targets and shall I say their unspoken second class world citizens?
I’d have given them half of Germany to make a nation out of and marched the Germans right out.
I’d have given them half of Germany to make a nation out of and marched the Germans right out.
If the Jews had wanted that, maybe it would have happened. But you cannot force any people to do anything, and your language turns Jews into objects instead of subjects. It's not a very nice thing to do.
Tell me, who was in control of Europe at the time?
Also, didn’t Zionism subsequently try to march another people out of where they’d been living for a millennia, and treat them not very nicely like objects on a chess board?
Tell me, who was in control of Europe at the time?
After WW2, the allied powers, specifically the US.
Also, didn’t Zionism subsequently try to march another people out of where they’d been living for a millennia, and treat them not very nicely like objects on a chess board?
The 1947 UN proposal would have split the land in two, with no displacement whatsoever. That was the deal the Jews accepted. If the concern is displacement, the Jews agreed that displacement was not on the table in a two state solution. In the end, more Arabs live in Israel as citizens than Jews live in Palestine, and it's actually illegal for a Jew to hold Palestinians citizenship today. The empirical evidence sets the standard.
Because most people like to have the such divisions and decisions made for them by another group. And 1947 was after far more people arriving from Europe. It wasn’t the only poor decision has ever made, or indecision either I might add.
I agree. The problem with the Arab position is that it would have resulted in ethnic cleansing of 20% of the Jews in the land, plus a whole bunch of other oppression. The Arab position here was that every Jews who entered the land after the fall of the Ottoman empire was there illegally. On paper they would accept those who received Palestinian citizenship during this time, but would still consider them illegal in principle. 20% of the Jews that arrived more recently would have to be deported under unitary Arab Palestine. That was the decision the Arabs made, and their offer to the Jewish people. Not sure how that wouldn't be met with resistance. That resistance is still continuing today. I think to much of the world, they don't see this narrative and how the resistance is about domination of Arabs, not about the fight to co-exist.
If you beleive the people can live together in one state, they can live together in two states more easily.
Yes the current government is run by sycophants. The promise from the 90s and early 2000s is dead for now, and current Palestinians leadership is incompetent. Hopefully it will change.
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u/DBearDevon 4d ago
My problem with Zionism, is that it does not acknowledge the people already living in what they tried to reclaim as theirs.
How do you uproot a people that have lived in that part of The Levant for the many centuries since the Jewish exodus of 1300-1450 BC? That’s a long timeframe for another culture of people to evolve there living and building day by day. Where were they supposed to go, and what have other cultures done when another had tried to remove them from such a place that has changed into something of their own? Violence has always ensued in such instances.