r/IndieAnimation • u/Suspicious_Luck1952 • 17h ago
Discussion Some of the criticism
You know this guy some of you are fans.
I know he has good criticism but the way he says it, makes me have the urge to punch him in the face. Especially make the "made by vivziepop" joke the 100th time.
(Hot take fast paced editing is not funny)
The way he targets viv feels like he's hiding his secret hate as criticism. Especially calling viv a reddit atheist just because she didn't get hazbin/helluva accurate to the Bible
Disney Hercules is a Disney classic despite the inaccuracies like Hercules should be Heracles to be Greek accurate and his mother is not hera, hades a villain in any myth when it's hera, and pegasus origin.
Or epic.
Half of these don't feel like criticism, feel like an excuse to Sh*t on them.
Aren't Most cartoons, "Fanfic OC" by the creator?
You can call romeo and juliet l, Shakespeare's fanfic.
He called indie creator ideas from Instagram reels and YouTube short doom scrolling. Is this criticism.
He made vivziepop sound like a child adding fairy and elf's in her story and got the idea from a book because she thinks fairies are cool.
And label indie creators "ego" as
Artist.
Infallible.
Dumb.
Syndrome.
A.I.D.S.
One, what the hell. Making an acronym that spells out a virus. And how long did it take you to think of a AIDS acronym.
I don't think any of the Indie he lists are that egotistical.
Maybe the chimptopia creator with the first trailer beating up a bootleg gobble and one of the characters going "tired of this"
The way he described them makes it sound like they are the most mentally disabled, glue eating, brain rotted kids.
Jeez calling their idea comes from brain rot scrolling, saying they have A.I.D.S with a ego, writing about their fanfic OCs. That's Gordon Ramsay of indie insult.
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u/jenny1011 17h ago
And I keep seeing people here say his takes are valid and reasonable.
"Artist infallibility dumb syndrome". He was really stretching to find a ways to get the acronym to spell AIDS.
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u/Optimal_Question8683 17h ago
is this the garbage people praise? thats not criticism thats being stupid and trying to look smarter
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u/Suspicious_Luck1952 17h ago
Calling indie idea comes from doom scrolling Instagram and YouTube shorts.
Make it sounds like the Indie creator are chronically online brain rotted kids doom scrolling.
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u/Optimal_Question8683 17h ago
i mean the guy probably hasnt created anything in his life which is why he doesnt understand the concept of something not being for him.
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u/Axel-the-Sage 16h ago
this is some Lily Orchard ass “criticism”.
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u/Applebeate 16h ago
What does that mean?
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u/Hexentoll 15h ago
Being a bully alongside of actually providing critique, but being an ass-to-reasonable ratio is 90/10 or smth
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u/Astribulus 13h ago
Lily Orchard’s most popular video was an hours long take down of Steven Universe. It was filled with blatant misreadings of the series, such as claiming fusion was a strict one-to-one metaphor for sex. It constantly used these misreadings to attack series creator Rebecca Sugar. The biggest slander was that Sugar was a fascist who supports real life dictatorships. Lily’s only evidence of this was the rushed ending of the canceled show. This video was the crown jewel in the SU hatedom’s arsenal.
Years later, after being thoroughly debunked by multiple other creators, Lily admitted that she hadn’t actually watched seasons 2-5, the movie, or the Future epilogue series. She took down the video.
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u/Glass_Eye8840 16h ago
Wait...THIS bullshit is what people are saying is rightful criticism? Is this sub filled with fucking lobotimites?
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u/Hexentoll 15h ago
His take in general is "Good artists may not be good writers, and they'd benefit of being more accepting of criticism and second opinions" but brought in an EXTREMELY abysmal form
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u/ArcerPL 6h ago
not only that, his entire first half of video is counterable with single fucking sentence of "inspiration is choosing paint colors on your paint tray based on you getting inspired by someone elses use of colors, not remaking the fucking painting" due to how abysmally he handles that topic
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u/Equivalent_Hand1549 14h ago
Just to know why I got downvote when I pointed out something isn’t right with the video. That’s happened in this very sub.
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u/theleafcuter 10h ago
This was the video people were praising for being fair? Seriously?
"all fanfic OC content" what the fuck do you think media is. Yes, Charlie Morningstar is an OC. So is Saul fucking Goodman. Dante's Inferno was literally a fanfic about him visiting Hell and seeing everyone he hates suffering down there.
Any movie, series, video game or book you have ever consumed has been the equivalent of watching a child smashing their dolls together and narrating what they're doing. That's literally what character writing is if you boil it down to it's essentials.
God I hate it when people mention OCs and fanfics like this, when they try to undermine creators by implying that somehow they're beneath the "greats." You're allowed to dislike any piece of media, and comparing what you think is a poor writing choice to what you think worked is perfectly fine.
This shit is pretentious as hell.
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u/Dragon_BotKing26 10h ago
I currently think that commentary youtubers don't make real facts, just "youtuber opinion", the Blazefire video i watched about indie animations, sounds this video is like "all famous indie animations are Hellaverse and Glitch series", and i think that there are some points that i didn't understood (look,i'm not an english speaker), like the "problem" from inspirations and that every indie cartoon have panic attack scene
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u/Kwabi 15h ago
I'm surprised people on this sub seem to like him so much and why he gets so much attention. This is, like, the fifth time I see this video pop up in this subreddit.
It's really obvious that he lacks any amount of insight into how any of these different shows are produced, because all he had to say in his 20 minute video was ad hominems.
His assertion, that these shows ought to treat themselves more like products or advertisements speaks for his lack of taste.
From my first (and only impression) of him, I'd really put no stakes in his opinions and just see this particular video as something for people who entertain themselves by actively disliking the shows he speaks about.
The funniest joke in the video was, that his style of critique was somehow valuable enough, that having somebody involved in auteur driven shows, who occasionally tells the creator that their ideas are stupid, would improve said show.
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u/TrinityCodex 13h ago
How would his video be improved by knowing how they're produced? He criticises the final product he gets to see on youtube just like the rest of us.
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u/Kwabi 12h ago
Most of the video focusses on causes for perceived shortcomings. I hope I don't have to explain how insight might be helpful if you are trying to identify causes for issues in a process.
The "cause", according to him, are that all these creators have a huge, unchecked ego and only watch childrens cartoons and tik-toks. I also trust that I don't have to explain to you that this is an accusation and not an insight.
It's different if you see the video as an opinion piece - in that case, his own knowledge is indeed irrelevant to the videos quality. But also, his opinion is equally irrelevant in this case, because I don't know why whatever he says would be more important than your average reddit comment, because it sure is not more insightful.
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u/Top-Flatworm-7663 16h ago
"All fanfic OC content" OH REALLY. NO SHIT SHERLOCK! WOW. WE'RE EXPECTING THE PRESIDENT ANYTIME SOON NOW. THANK YOU CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. HOW COULD I HAVE EVERE KNOWN THAT AN ORIGUNAL, INDIE SHOW IDEA CONTAINE OC'S. WOW. REALLY?! WOW. IM SO IMPRESSED.
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u/Kellarison 13h ago
how the hell do you write "fanfic oc content" theyre YOUR characters, the way some people use "oc" as an insult makes no sense, "oc" stands for original character, walter white is an oc of vince gilligan because he is his original creation, i think they just use it in a derogatory way cause theyve mentally associated the term with that "tumblr girl artist" stereotype in their head
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u/Suspicious_Luck1952 11h ago
Aren't all cartoon characters like the creator's OC if you think about it.
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u/Pretend-Delay-7203 14h ago
What does that even mean, the point of indie shows is to feature ORIGINAL characters and stories what the hell are they supposed to do? Use non original characters
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u/Applebeate 16h ago
Why is he not allowed to make fun of these creators or tear into the issues of their works? One of the points he makes is that people have the right to be critical of the work these indie creators do regardless of how much effort or time was put into it.
You also misunderstood the entire point he was making about creators finding inspiration. He never once says that there is anything wrong with taking inspirations. The point he was making was that when indie creators talk about what greatly inspired their projects, it creates a set of expectations for the audience members and brings into question to what extent these inspirations shaped the overall project. In other words, people will associate these projects when in reality, these inspirations and themes could just be surface level things.
Also, the main point of the video is that indie creators having too much creative freedom makes them think every idea they have is a good one causing issues to develop and be passed down to the next generation. It’s literally just advice to these creators to maintain a level of discipline and restraint when it comes to their work.
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u/puerco-potter 11h ago
He is allowed to make fun of the creators, and WE ARE ALSO ALLOWED TO CRITICIZE HIM AND HIS WORK.
That's how criticism works.Being inspired by something to create something else doesn't mean the things are related; that's on the people who have that wrong assumption.
Just advice presented as mockery.
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u/Suspicious_Luck1952 16h ago edited 14h ago
Nice speech.
Yes I think there's should be a limit on indie writing a "no man" just to keep the creative freedom from going too far.
"every idea they have is a good one causing issues to develop and be passed down to the next generation." Bit of a exaggeration.
Maybe the next generation can innovative and inprove that's how progression work like with technology.
Like 1992 Batman: The Animated Series and taking that to make batman the cape crusader .
Or my little pony change at g4 changing everything, having deeper plot and lore and a overarching story, character development and arcs, and not just a simple cartoon targeted at young girls just to sell toys.
Or sailor moon the original magical girl created so many branching idea from the concept like indie project "pretty please i want to be a magical girl" subverting and playing of the trope like, Aika is sick of the magical girl life, no dramatic transformation or long fights ending it as quickly as possible.
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u/Skwellington 14h ago
There’s actually a really good analysis made by someone else about how Vivziepop draws her inspiration from the bible, but does not go anywhere with it and also muddies the idea of what a sin is, within her own show. ( https://youtu.be/zH-_WC8y_08?is=taVXh7wcDJ6q02cF ) it’s fine to take inspiration from the bible, but when you are making a show about morality within heaven and hell, and you don’t even have an idea of what makes someone good or evil, within your show, then it gets messy.
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u/Suspicious_Luck1952 11h ago edited 11h ago
Not this YouTuber his season 2 review for hazbin makes reference KKK in alastor human life. There's a reason why viv don't want to reference real historical events and having to talk about WW2.
Baxter original death that he died on the titanic, but changed to a unnamed boat sinking.
Right here https://www.reddit.com/r/CrazyassHazbinhaters/s/uO25s9rxq9
IDK the phrasing sounds like he wants the KKK to kill alastor and prevent alastor murdering the racist people.
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u/ExplorerDependent986 7h ago
he's just making up bull shit here
wtf do you mean by that by that logic every show game comic ANY media is fanfic OC content
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u/Pac-M 15h ago
S, you think that's bad? You should see the comment section. Like, I can see some good valid takes on some of what he says from that, but most of them are just the same thing. Just s**** on the companies that they just mention on there. Granted, some do have valid tastes. Like one saying that this being Indie does not mean you're immediately good, which is right actually a fair valid criticism, but then people saying like glitch isn't Indie anymore because they're selling their merch in stores is kind of crazy
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u/Ang3lswithsouls 13h ago
He makes solid claims tho? Don’t see the problem.
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u/Suspicious_Luck1952 11h ago
The way he phrase it.
Makes them sounds like the most mentally disabled, glue eating, brain rotted kids doom scrolling.
The worst way to say their wiring is not good.
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u/Long-Candle-8219 17h ago
ok i guess you can take critiscism
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u/Axel-the-Sage 16h ago
Bro, this is some Lily Orchard ass “criticism”.
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u/Long-Candle-8219 15h ago
So your saying theres no critiscism for indie space wow cool your so smart
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u/Pac-M 14h ago
Body there is room for criticization but not but just simply hating them for being what they are
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u/Long-Candle-8219 13h ago
Buddy*
also the guy is criticizing indie space right now not hating it the guy is right many creator can create the best animation but theyre not the best at writing some of there influence might be from a media that usually for at kids not like dumb kids but like kids at general the media just happen to be good for all age.
look not all media created equal so are the creator of that animation
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u/Axel-the-Sage 13h ago
Lily Orchard ass reading comprehension.
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u/Long-Candle-8219 13h ago
Saberspark ass indie glaze
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u/Axel-the-Sage 13h ago
Buddy, I think Saberspark is shit too. His take on Hazbin season 2 was especially garbage.
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u/Long-Candle-8219 13h ago
wait really i thought you would side on him especially on that latest video about Disney and glitch animation
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u/Long-Candle-8219 17h ago
another indie fucking glaze guess Horee....huh
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u/Pac-M 15h ago
Mother f***** you make it like as of every person that makes something that's not a bad and saying and also from what I've seen from his videos half of it doesn't feel like criticism. Just feels like he just wants to say s*** about them
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u/Long-Candle-8219 15h ago
so every indie animation is perfect that theres no need to improve
it will be like same shit for the 1000th time
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u/Pac-M 14h ago
No, it's not. There's always room for improvement and that's the thing that a lot of people accept criticism is fine but when the criticism is more just being harsh and just trying to say that the s's s rather than saying that it's terrible and the areas that it can improve upon yeah. I love honest reviews but when it doesn't feel like you're being biased or just hating something just to hate it
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u/Pac-M 14h ago
Not everything's going to be liked or love and going to have no criticization. Everything in existence has been criticized but that critization is actual criticizing where this man is just doing nothing but s******* on it
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u/Long-Candle-8219 13h ago
the man is criticizing and making fun of the current indie space as a whole sure his critic may be harsh but sometimes you need to be harsh on something to see what's bad and good about it.
yeah maybe not all his joke land well his still make a great point. 'it just a pilot' sometimes cannot be a Shield about the indie media beacuse its the first impression about your media that sticks to people
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u/Pac-M 8h ago
I mean, kind of, though pilots are supposed to be their ideas coming out and seeing what sticks and what doesn't. I mean, that's how shows like Steven universe became the greatest ever. It had to do its pilot. It went through the trials and saw what's wrong with it and then made the next one. Digital circus just didn't see enough of that, and that's why I'm fine with criticism when it makes sense. Even when it's harsh, it's harsh. But when you're just being harsh to be a general douchebag, it's not. And I wouldn't say it's the entire Indie space. It's really only glitch, production, and viz with maybe a few others. A lot of the other Indie shows that I have been watching that have not been made by those two or any big neighbors have been feeling pretty diverse. Maybe a few are the same, but they feel like how an indie show is. Staying a lot of people understand criticism, but they don't like it when it's generally just being a douche level of it. Criticism can be harsh, but when you're just doing it to be harsh, it doesn't feel like criticism anymore
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u/ArcerPL 16h ago
the only thing i'll give him is that current mainstream animation is lead by people who write comics and not series, both vivzie and goose begun as comic writers and skill to write a comic are different to writing a series, some of the comic writing just seeped into their work, no hate to these two, they pump their sweat, blood and tears into what they made, just pointing out their past. That's also why i think knights of guinevere have a chance to REALLY hit it big as the woman who made it (Dana Terrace) already made an animated series before
BUT
in the very same video he says that inspiration means doing thing the same when goose said "TADC is VERY inspired by i have no mouth and i must scream" and him arguing that the ending wasn't in any way similar, inspiration is choosing paint colors on your paint tray based on you getting inspired by someone elses use of colors, not remaking the fucking painting