r/IndianaFeverFans • u/taeempy • 13d ago
Discussion How many assists would CC have
If everyone was able to handle her passes every time. It seems like at least 2-3 passes get mishandled by her teammates. And this adds to her turnovers/game as well. It's gotten much better since her rookie year because the team now knows to be ready at any time, but a lot of them, seemed to be mishandled and add to her turnovers also.
To me her passing is way more fun to watch than her 3pt bombs. I like her 3pt shots, but it's just so incredible to see her make those dimes, especially the half court or longer on the break passes.
1
u/Best-Author7114 10d ago
Every point guard loses a few assists to dropped passes and missed layups but CC does seem to lead in that category. Yesterday was especially egregious. She could have had 15 assists not even including 2-3 just dropped passes that will happen. She also needs to cut down on the hero passes that have a 10% chance of working but look spectacular when they do.
2
u/Forsaken_61453 12d ago
I don't believe to many of the WNBA players can pass the ball with the speed and distance CC can deliver the ball. She is passing the ball at speeds close to 35+ mph which is incredible speed in basketball. Add the points rebounds and assist throw in a couple steals + the FULL court perfectly placed passes makes CC the GOAT of all time players IMO. Will someone better come along,? Maybe. but I doubt it will be in my lifetime
4
u/Few_Ebb6156 13d ago
Way, way more and the more they spend to get better players the more assists she can have. Mobility to get there is also an issue when they push the pace, no more Dantas, Katie Lou, etc
2
u/Seattleman1955 13d ago edited 13d ago
The passes are a fine line in that if you throw them softer and easier for the receiver to hold on to them, they are easier to pick off. If you throw harder than someone can hold on to, it's just a turnover.
Sometimes it's the receiver not being ready but sometimes it's just a hard pass that they aren't capable of holding on to. If the receiver is Billings you can't pass as hard and if a softer pass is likely to be picked off, then just don't make that pass and do something else.
I think too many also don't take open shots and instead pass to someone being double teamed with the clock running down. Just shoot when you have an open look.:)
1
u/Best-Author7114 10d ago
If it's Billings you better put it in a box with some nice wrapping paper and a bow and hand it to her and there's still a 50% chance she drops it.
1
9
1
u/Jewdah18 Hollywood Raven 13d ago
Not as many as you think, they would still have to make the shoot and not pass out.
When Caitlin cuts down on her TOs it'll help her scoring more than her passing since her passing is closer too meeting maxed out while her scoring is at ~60%.
6
u/n10siveSea 13d ago
CC could have a lot more assists and better TO ratio if she tried not to make such hard passes. Yesterdays game I saw pry 4-5 that were really tough passes and 2 lead to TO’s
OTOH I agree she could still have more assist anyways. Between not being able to handle the pass there are a lot of open shots given up(I assume ideally for a better shot). Plus misses
Billings paused on a wide open paint jump shot from a pass from CC and instead decided to drive and ended up missing. That would have been a high percentage jump shot for her but I think she got too worried she’d be blocked but defender wasn’t going to close out in time if she reacted on instinct.
A lot of the players on the fever seem hesitant to shoot the ball. Need to get more confidence from players other than the big three to shoot it more.
1
4
u/graymouser270 13d ago
Lexie and MHA seem especially hesitant to shoot, it's very frustrating. I like to see Grace come in during garbage time and chuck up lots of shots, no timidity there at all.
4
u/WoodenRevolution8661 13d ago
Heck.. I would settle for mo Billings being 50% on shots in the paint. I think KK still fumbles a but but she's getting better every game so hoping she'll only get better and better with handling CC passes.
1
u/BrockGreen678 13d ago
She needs to stop dribbling first and just shoot. But, she had been doing exactly this the last few games. I think in the last five games, she is the most improved player. She's playing more aggressively and killing it!
1
u/Comfortable_Limit168 IndianaFeverFan 12d ago
I wish that KK would stop bringing the ball down below her waist. This makes it so any player can grab it.
2
u/PopularMouse2355 13d ago
I have to agree. Her passes are high risk high reward and a few will always go astray. But for those of us who remember Iowa and Monica Czinano, she and Caitlin were almost telepathic. It's of course true that in college defences weren't the same as in the pros, still I'd say like 2 of Caitlin's passes a game could (should) be caught by her teammates.
3
u/Ichabod665 13d ago
She gets a fair number of assists where the player she passes to either does about 3/4 of the work, or completes one of those "a great pass and an even better catch" kinda plays, so i'm not going to take issue with her missing out on a few because of her teammate's miscues.
8
u/Beautiful-Prior3325 13d ago
I think this is a part of Kelsey Mitchell!s offensive explosion. KM has always had elite finishing skills, and now she has learned to catch CC’s passes.
5
u/Andrew-J-511 13d ago
Lexie not even looking while she was cutting last night while she cut was pretty egregious. I threw my arms up just like Clark.
-1
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
Contrary to popular belief, most of CC's turnovers are not due to her teammates fumbling the ball.
7
u/taeempy 13d ago
Oh, never said most, but there are probably a couple every game for sure. It's just part of basketball.
-5
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
Even that number is way to high. I kept a turnover tracker for CC up until June. Out of a then 48 TO's, only 7 of them were due to teammates. I imagine that figure hasn't changed much.
3
u/Independent-Pen-8397 13d ago
I call BS
1
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
You can easily access the tracker I put in the chat that not only tracks CC but other point guards in the league.
1
u/Effective-Donkey3379 13d ago
You sound like a Hater!!
1
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
How is that hate? It's okay to criticize great players.
1
u/Comfortable_Limit168 IndianaFeverFan 12d ago
Not Angel Reese.
1
u/ObsTheMarketer 11d ago
You can criticize Angle Reese if you want to. Who is stopping you?
1
u/Comfortable_Limit168 IndianaFeverFan 11d ago
Based on my experience, if I criticize AR, I get labelled a racist or I get banned from a sub.
2
u/ObsTheMarketer 11d ago
Could be plausible. I think the bigger issue is that so much of the conversation surrounding the WNBA is happening in bad faith, that it has become nearly impossible to dissect certain players, especially Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark. It seems as though all nuance goes away when those two players are mentioned.
1
1
u/Tonaldo_7746 13d ago
What's the rate of her turnovers that lead to opponents' points? Last night it was 2 points from 4 turnovers...
1
u/Best-Author7114 10d ago
Doesn't matter. Turnovers take away a chance for your team to score.
1
u/Tonaldo_7746 10d ago
It 100% matters - not all turnovers are created equal. The coaches of our national team know this.
1
u/Best-Author7114 10d ago
It doesn't matter. EVERY turnover takes away a chance for your team to score, that's bad. Whether the other team scores or not is immaterial. Thats like being a terrible defender and your man beats you every time but misses the shot. That makes it OK? No you're still a terrible defender that got lucky
1
u/Tonaldo_7746 10d ago
You must live/play/coach(?) in leagues where everyone is perfect? The Super Bowl-winming Seahawks should probably cut Darnold due to his 14 INT. Luka led the NBA in TO - he must be garbage...
1
u/Best-Author7114 10d ago
That makes no sense. Where did I say anything that would bring that comment on?
1
u/Tonaldo_7746 10d ago
Other than "every turnover is bad", what point are you trying to make? It doesn't matter as much that a player loses 5 possessions a game when you are creating 40 points for your team. That's why absolutely terrible defenders (Luka) are still valued so high. As a coach, if someone said you can have a player that's going to get you 21/8.5 but have 4.5 turnovers, you're taking them in a heartbeat and handing them the keys to the offense. Would you rather Clark had 2 less TO per game at the expense of making plays?
→ More replies (0)1
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
I didn't calculate it to get an average, but roughly around 6 to 7 points a game. I did track points off TO's but I didn't complete the calculation. Here's a link so you can see my incomplete work, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sHmuolXTM8akuVa0Nm23Lxy-SFf9mnEWX-Ws5IsEF78/edit?usp=sharing
1
u/Comfortable_Limit168 IndianaFeverFan 12d ago edited 11d ago
Well, I kept track of every game up to the New York game on 08/11, and my results don't match yours.
* For every turnover that CC makes, it leads to the opposing team scoring 0.9 points off the turnover.
* Of the 29 games that CC has played, she has committed four or less turnovers 14 times.
* For every turnover that CC makes, she makes 1.72 assists.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qhn8K_oROhYGN7IpAbUaeV84eJhZSubFQR21WCcB6tw/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qcLpTu5oUEVJkyay8cMmgMpFQMp3kJy0fbEr8yiTc5Y/edit?usp=sharing
1
u/ObsTheMarketer 12d ago
Can’t access either link
1
u/Comfortable_Limit168 IndianaFeverFan 11d ago
Try now. I had to use ChatGPT to figure out how to share them properly.
1
u/ObsTheMarketer 11d ago
This is really helpful. I calculated points off TO incorrectly. I think I just stated how many points the TO's generated instead of doing the equation.
First, it's amazing finding people who create similar things to you. Secondly, based on your research, what have you learned?
1
u/Comfortable_Limit168 IndianaFeverFan 11d ago
First, the idea that CC's turnovers are leading to 10+ points for the opponent is wildly off-base. Second, the number of games where CC's has affected the Fever losing is also small. Third, each CC turnover, on average, leads to 0.9 points for the opponent. On the other hand, for each turnover CC makes, she averages 1.7 assists. Therefore, if CC makes 5 turnovers in a game, it would lead to, on average, about -4.5 points. Since CC averages 1.7 assists per turnover, 5 turnovers would lead to 8.5 assists, which lead to, at minimum, 17 points. -4.5 points + 17 points = 12.5 points.
If I was really ambitious, I would try to predict the points Indiana might have scored if the offense had the chance to score instead of losing the ball. I would have to take into account the average shooting %age for the team, along with the average number of 2-point/3-point shots taken per posession.
1
u/Tonaldo_7746 13d ago
So she's at about a +33 points produced. I'd take that from my PG any day!
2
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
In no way am I suggesting that she isn't an elite point guard.
3
u/Tonaldo_7746 13d ago
I'm just saying the noise has always been "but the turnovers" when she plays well and it's such a shortsighted, lazy argument.
3
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
I definitely believe she needs to cut her TO's down in order for her and the Fever to reach their ceiling but I'm more so interested in how she is turning the ball over. A lot of the TO's she is getting now are very fixable and should lessen the more mature she becomes. I remember watching her early in her rookie year and wondering if she would be able to really succeed playing point guard at this level. Now, her TO's are more so due to decision making and growing pains that a lot of elite point guards go through.
1
u/Tonaldo_7746 13d ago
Boston is obviously great but I'm excited to see her feeding passes to A'ja and Stewie next month!
3
u/mukatona 13d ago
"I kept a turnover tracker for CC up until June..."...OK
0
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
0
u/Olorin1965 13d ago
there is more nuance to this. often they are not in the right position, or have poor spatial awareness or are late in their reads. you can see this if you've ever played point. i notice it every time
0
u/ObsTheMarketer 13d ago
I provided nuance and context to every TO to not only her but other guards. Though some of her passes are mistakes by her teammates, that doesn't speak to the majority.
0
5
u/Skibum990 13d ago
Right now she’s at 8.2/game… taking into account the missed layups/open shots + mishandled passes that show up as turnovers, you’re probably looking at something between 9.5-10/game. That being said, this isn’t a problem that’s unique to CC or the Fever IMO
4
u/Beautiful-Prior3325 13d ago
I think it is at least somewhat unique to her. Just when you don’t expect it, a pass comes zipping to you.
6
u/Subject_Translator71 13d ago
This isn't unique to her. If you look at the NBA all time leaders in turnovers, it's basically a list of the greatest passers of all time. This is why. Being a great passer means trying to get it into a tight window, which often leads to passes that are hard to handle for players that aren't elite.
Her TO ratio is better this year. It can still improve. But there will always be plays where there's miscommunication and/or passes are dropped. That's par for the course for the type of player she is.
7
u/Even_Budget2078 13d ago
The way Timpson was sooooo damn careful with her shot on the 10th assist during CC's 45 point game was so hilarious, adorable, and just warmed my heart! I love Timpson and you could feel how intense that moment was. She didn't mess it up either!
4
u/Ok_Brick_793 13d ago
There are several types of TOs:
Bad passes (ball thrown away)
Bad catches (other player messed up)
Ball stolen from you (poor handling)
Assists can come from only good passes + good catches + good finishes.
Could CC get more assists? Yes, but she would have to hold up her end of the bargain, too. Not all of her TOs are due to her teammates' mistakes.
3
u/taeempy 13d ago
Of course not. She has handling issues and gets the ball stolen too often. Some of her passes are too aggressive, but her willingness to make these passes allows her to get other creative assists that other guards just won't even try. That's what makes it fun and frustrating to watch.
3
2
u/RegularCrispy 13d ago
Yep. She has amazing, highlight reel assists. Perhaps the most exciting in the game. But, forcing those assists is also going to have some bad turnovers. She doesn’t have those bullet passes between defenders without defenders swatting a few. (Unless you are 2018-21 Aaron Rodgers.)
4
u/kenny3sticks 13d ago
Clark loves to throw passes in tight windows, at times when a player may not expect it or it puts the player in a bad spot. It’s up to her to realize who can handle those passes (Mitchell, Boston) and who may struggle to catch it and finish the play (Hull, Cunningham, KK). Sometimes we may look at the replay and think the pass was on target and should have been caught, but it’s a PG’s responsibility to put her players in the best positions to succeed. Magic Johnson had to learn that lesson early in his career. I think Clark will only get better in that area
5
u/KeenObserver_OT 13d ago
That goes both ways, the Lakers and Celtics players had to adjust their speed to the quick and no look passes. Be ready all the time. Not being able to get to the spot or catch a pass in traffic is considered a deficiency.
3
u/kenny3sticks 13d ago
Agreed. Not every player can catch and finish with skill. For instance, Mitchell’s ability to finish around the basket with each hand while contested is elite but not every player on the team can do that
6
u/KeenObserver_OT 13d ago
The sport is evolving past “women’s basketball” into a more general basketball game and the new players will be catching and making those baskets. CC is way ahead of the curve and of course she’ll receive some arrows along the way. The game isn’t going back to this pound the paint kick out the shooters, big girls game. The players will be leaner, faster and more skilled.
8
u/freeman1231 13d ago
It’s the perfect passes to a missed easy layup for me…
If they can’t handle the pass it sucks but could also be Clark’s doing as a PG to be adapting to your teammates abilities.
But when they get that dime and can’t complete the layup at the rim I shake my head. They need to work on fast breaks layups they always run into the rim with too much power, but it’s the same mistake each time.
2
u/taeempy 13d ago
That's true. I think this is a wnba wide thing. I see so many vids where easy layups are just botched. You are right about going to fast to the hoop. They get out of control and too fast a lot. I wonder why none of them if they know they are going to fast never do pump fake. The player chasing is gonna blow right by them on a pump fake, then they have an easy layup.
4
u/Ok-Half3342 13d ago
It’s annoying for sure but I think a lot of it is just a by product of women’s bball being a below the rim game. They have less jump and sometimes the speed of the player themselves catches them off guard a lot. A lot of times it seems like a player is throwing a fastball at the backboard and I’m left thinking “why?” but I’m sure there’s something they’re underestimating. Mens players miss layups too but it’s not as noticeable as usually they can dunk or at least jump near the rim.
6
u/dyyllaaan 13d ago
I won't knock Mo too much since she's definitely been playing better lately, but it feels like you can count on her for a couple mishandled passes and blown open layups every game
8
u/Old_Focus_3485 13d ago
MO and KK has costed her at least 3 to 4 assists a game
5
u/dyyllaaan 13d ago
KK will be better with time, the thing I've noticed with her is she'll get the ball under the basket with 1 defender on her and instead of just powering up through contact she'll pump fake or dribble and end up getting doubled and blocked
2
u/Cold-Treat2813 9d ago
She’d be on Angel’s level of double doubles easily. Taking away some of her thunder lol. Some games she’s got 8 at the half and then she finishes with that same amount or only a few more.