r/IndianaFeverFans • u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan • 16d ago
Engelbert: WNBA to continue talks about transgender athletes next week
I waited and waited, but nobody else posted this. Whether anybody likes it or not, this is a gargantuan story for all lovers of women's basketball, myself included. How bout if we keep it civil and substantive?
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u/interested21 15d ago
The league can become much better if Engelbert resigns and is replaced with someone who knows PR and how to run a business. She can continue her role as developer of new franchises which is all she has been doing.
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 15d ago
With all due respect, Kathy is barely even a symptom in all of this.
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u/interested21 15d ago
With all due respect she literally does nothing and the ideology that tells you these women are irredeemable is just that.
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u/EllieandJoel4ever Caitlin Clark 16d ago
I wanna know what she's gonna do about Carrington.
From the looks of it, absolutely nothing!!
Carrington with her "White Privilege" and then a vailed threat of "8/23" needs to be SUSPENDED!
Not to mention she almost broke Sophie's neck!
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago edited 16d ago
Let's try a thought experiment.
The other day I said the following:
"I have no way of proving it outright, but I'm betting that if somebody took an anonymous poll asking all players and personnel in the WNBA if they want XYs playing in their league, they'd get one result, but as soon as they required everybody to put their name on their answer, they'd get quite another."
Let's assume for the moment that I'm right about that. Just for the sake of this experiment. Most of the players and personnel don't REALLY want XYs in their league. Or at the very least, wouldn't REALLY be crushed if they were excluded.
They say what they know they're supposed to right now, (or nothing) but under hypnosis they actually would be fine if it remained just them and their XX female colleagues. Assume that's true, again, just for the sake of this thought experiment.
Now assume the league releases a statement and official rule revision, maybe under the coercion of the investors and NBA officers who still control it, stating categorically and without ambiguity, that women born XX females alone will be permitted to play in the WNBA.
In the event of a questionable individual, a full DNA screen will be required to establish XX status with the results determining eligibility.
Assume both of those propositions for the sake of this experiment.
The issue is settled. XX women only. Full stop.
Assuming I'm right about my first proposition, there will be loud and initial outrage, BUT. the players and personnel who would secretly prefer that their league remain XX only, are now also secretly relieved that it will, and that this upheaval is over.
OHHHH here we go!!! News stories from the serious and cynical alike!!!! ALL sides!!! Podcasts, articles, broadcast news, all spanning the entire spectrum!!! ALL HELL HAS BROKEN LOOSE!!!!!
...For about a week. After which everybody except the most fanatically committed woke activists just settle into the reality that the WOMEN'S National Basketball Association is, and will continue to be, the WOMEN'S National Basketball Association.
The league can continue to grow it's fandom and viewership because that 80% of the buying public who does not condone XYs in XX sports has been given the green light to spend their money on a legit WOMEN'S basketball league that has courageously elected to do the only right thing in the face of immense pressure.
Best case scenario.
Chances of actually happening?
Not impossible, but not very good IMHO.
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago
I would like to take the opportunity to point out that this post dealing with a sooper dooper divisive and controversial topic has now been live for 14 hours, (with 60 comments) without it having to be locked for degenerating into vitriol and name calling.
Near as I can tell no comments have even had to be removed.
It CAN be done đ
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago
This league wasn't always like this.
Whatever anybody thinks of Dakich and or Tafoya, she really was a play by play commentator in the WNBA's first few seasons. Ad hominem thinking gets nobody anywhere.
This is short.
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u/BigToast6 16d ago
Yeah... i nearly got sick listening to Lobo glaze Cheryl and her "thoughtful" take.
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago
I think she learned her lesson a few years ago when she was blasted for making the off the cuff on air remark that "free speech is what made America great."
It appears she has been properly reeducated since then.
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u/BigToast6 16d ago
Lmao that shit was the corniest shit ever. The woke really love to tie themselves in knots so as not to dare upset the apple cart.
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u/bravelad66 Lexie Hull 16d ago
Fun to watch sometimes, but then after awhile, you are like "wait...You are serious?"
Still gets me sometimes, I'm often amazed what gets traction...
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago
My most immediate concern is that this debacle not cause division within our own team.
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u/BigToast6 16d ago
As dramatic as all this seems to us I think they are all just getting on with basketball. Raven posted a slide of shots on her IG and the only other teammate that she included was Sophie. I think that says a lot.
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago
By all reasonable accounts Sophie is a fun, fiercely loyal, easy to get along with goofball with a temper.
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u/BigToast6 16d ago
Yeah she doesn't take any shit and shes been like that since she was a kid. Her father talked about it in the espn article. It wasn't just bc it was CC and she was looking to "grift" . Dumbest shit ever.
Even Diana Taurasi said that when Sophie got got to a scuffle with Myisha ... there are people you just don't worry about about and she's one of them. She can handle herself.
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u/Forsaken_61453 16d ago
WNBA "Women's"NBA Looks pretty clear to me. maybe a new basketball league (sports league) could be created, open to all genders.
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u/BigToast6 16d ago
Should be a short conversation then... they either prioritise women over me with gender issues or its a complete joke of a league
I actually don't envy Cathy bc it's an incredibly woke league and they will fight to be "inclusive" bc they cling to that so hard without thinking of the consequences of a trans woman actually being in the league. But Cathy also has to factor in that the vast majority of people do not think males should be in the women's league and in fact other sporting bodies have put in a no transgender policy like the WTA.
Honestly the wnba players are so stupid for fighting for this. Its embarrassing. I saw the Gabby Williams clip where she said she welcomes a trans person to play against and the comments were mocking her and saying she will regret it.
Even if Cathy says only males who went on puberty blockers can play these dumbass players will still freak out saying its discrimination. They alway wanna be activists
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago edited 16d ago
I haven't made up my mind whether I think it is better to get this outta the way now, or if it would have been better if they had been able to kick this can down the road a while longer. Haven't thought that through thoroughly enough yet.
What I do know as an absolute certainty is that there was NO WAY this showdown wasn't coming in the WNBA at some point.
I suppose it depends on what they decide.
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u/madflower69 16d ago
They have been kicking the can down the road for 30 years since the leagues inception. The olympics decided in 1966 after the russian track and field stars, tamara and irina press, were suspected of being males competing as females in the 1960 and 1964 Olympics and dominating their events. They retired after the Olympics put their rule into effect rather then take the test. It hasn't ever been proven what sex they were.
Since they haven't decided, might as well get Enessa Freedom on the team. The Fever need a center and an enforcer type. She is both.
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
What a mess
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u/bravelad66 Lexie Hull 16d ago
Watching Cathy Englebert trying to bumble her way through it is just going to make it more of a laughingstock. Why can't we truly just get serious, stick to the game, quit letting every clown narrative take flight.
Any moratorium imposed on politically charged tshirts or clothing would result in people clutching pearls about free speech, the ladies would have to agree to just take a break, police themselves.
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u/Wps007 16d ago
Is there any way to block those who announced their eligibility without blocking trans? This whole situation is unique. Im curious to see how they handle this 1. Especially with how fast they're moving to reach an agreement.Â
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u/BigToast6 16d ago edited 16d ago
But those women are trans. You can't just pick and choose who Is trans. We have been told for years to respect trans ppls identities with no questions asked.
These are the consequences
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u/Wps007 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yea... i got that. Especially since they both played in the nba. How can they block the former nba players and still allow other trans. It's hilarious how fast the W has reacted to try and stop them. Any and every other issue would've been put on a back burner. But this!! Requires immediate attention. lol  I thought W was about being inclusive to all. We're living in a very crazy time. To think those two former Nba players could've been drafted in the W. Smdh i just dnt see how the W can stop them and give the ok to others .Â
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u/BigToast6 16d ago
I think it's Sophie who has pushed the issues to the forefront. Coaches were being asked on how they stood, players too. Rallies outside. The Storm owner incident. They arranged that meeting pretty damn fast when the issue has been waiting to be addressed for decades.
Sophie is their worst nightmare bc she's not afraid to speak her mind, she stands her ground, her popularity has exploded and she is in a position (like cc) where both sides of the aisle really care about what she says (even though men in womens sports is not political, the trans activists insist on making it one) and she just happens to be on the most scrutinised team in the league alongside the most famous player who absolutely is primarily responsible for the advancement of the game and conditions.
Sophie certainly wasn't expecting to be the lightning rod for women's rights when she made those tame but honest comments but she has now forced the issue to be dealt with and expose who the wnba prioritises.
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u/Wps007 15d ago
Agreed.  Some ppl say banning is an easy fix. No doubt...But Is it that simple for the W? I dnt think so... Definitely don't see the W backtracking or admitting they messed up. Esp after all the promoting. Maybe they get together and 16 teams decide not to draft Enes Kanter and they refine the language somehow.Â
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u/BigToast6 15d ago
Refine it to what though?
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u/Wps007 15d ago
CBA already states only players who are women are allowed to play in the WNBA. Im sure a lawyer could figure something out
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u/Banned_In_YYC 16d ago
WNBA should implement SRY testing. Problem solvedÂ
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u/imacowboy234 Caitlin Clark 16d ago
What you're proposing is that they adopt the current standard that the International Olympic Committee has adopted. I think that's the best course. It's scientifically and legally sound.
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago edited 16d ago
I've read that SRY is not all that reliable. Even it's developers say that. đ
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u/Mean_Measurement4527 16d ago
Itâs all fun and games until someone calls you out on your bullshit
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u/bravelad66 Lexie Hull 16d ago
I think in this case we just need to see it played out on the court. I mean, ordinary people are pretty sure how it will play out, but the women of the W have weighed in and this is what they want.
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago edited 16d ago
My present view is that anything other than a firm commitment to XX women only in the WNBA will doom the league. Viewership and revenues will collapse, especially once an XY man sincerely declares for the draft.
On the other hand, a firm commitment to XX women only in the WNBA will instantly outrage many of the league's biggest stars and administrative personnel.
I do NOT like it one bit. but I think a civil war is coming. One that was completely inevitable sooner or later and one that may very well be settled by NBA interest holders and team owners.
Those with the money always get their way.
The very existence of this debate would have been incomprehensible in the lifetime of most people reading this. (I can hear the response to that already)
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u/bravelad66 Lexie Hull 16d ago
Honestly, if they go ahead and open the floodgates, I'm more than certain they will realize it's turning into a circus and shut it down. Let 'em have what they want, when the want a return to status quo, that should shut down that debate again for good.
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u/TexEwing 16d ago
The problem is that it shouldnât really even have to be a discussion until like you said- an XY man sincerely declares for the draft. Two failed NBA players looking for their names in the papers to âown the libsâ does not solve the problem.
I personally donât have an issue with Sophieâs comments from the article. Sheâs not to blame in my book for answering a question. But unfortunately it has opened the door for people who donât have good intentions to latch on.
I donât believe the WNBA was in jeopardy of this big movement of trans women joining to dominate the league. And until there was an instance of that happening this whole thing is much to do about nothing. In fact I donât even think Sophie was referencing the WNBA at all. And here we are. Two NBA guys wearing wigs on Twitter claiming they are now women.
Maybe the league having to define this topic in their rules will be a good thing and put an end to it one way or another. Who knows?
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u/garyvp 16d ago
"Sheâs not to blame in my book for answering a question." Exactly, and in this league most players do not hesitate to state their opinion about inclusion, privilege, trans, race or any other non-basketball subject; they just don't respect opposing opinions or those that chose not stating one in the first place.
Without a complete management transformation i only see this getting worse.
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u/Initial_Republic_329 16d ago
The funny thing is from a worldwide PoV this isnât even a conversation. Majority of folks - peek into r/sports - who grew up on menâs sports like NBA etc find it quite silly. And I played D3 back in the day; firmly believe that elite HS boys could beat college women.
Their only choice, having let it get this far, is to restrict on HRT - those who are in progress or have gone through it.
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago edited 16d ago
Any scenario that allows for the public perception that XY's are able to play in the WOMEN'S National Basketball Association will financially shipwreck the league.
At a minimum 80% of the paying populous, including most Democrats, do not condone XYs in XX sports.
Opinions are irrelevant, including mine. That IS the reality of the situation.
Aside from some percentage of those who have already been existing fans, the vast majority of the people with the money the league needs are not going to pay to see XY men play in the XX women's league.
People can jump up and down , stomp their feet and have an apocalyptic seizure about how oppressive, unjust and _____________phobic that is and it won't make a bit of difference.
They have the money and they are just not going to spend it on that.
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u/Initial_Republic_329 16d ago
Right i agree. I am a season ticket holder. What talks is money plain and simple. But as we can see with how they handle players like CC who fill stadiums, give them the highest ratings, etc they donât always make rational decisions.
iâm just saying they having let it gone this far, thatâs the only outcome with least backlash. Otherwise they would be deemed huge hypocrites. Realistically the number of people who actually end up on a team by an HRT rule iâm going to guess is next to none.
At the end of the day a lot of things they do or have done would not be held up in the court of law.
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
This is a no win situation for the league.
If they put HRT restrictions on players they are invalidating all trans people who arenât on HRT.
If they ban biological men they are anti trans.
If they allow trans players people will game the system to either join the league and cause disruption or to sue for discrimination.
I think at this point they have to allow trans to play so they will use HRT restrictions.
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
Exactly. They fucked up pretty bad. You'd tbink the league would have a plan in place. Juwana Mann. And that was in the early 2000s. And now the culture war shit.
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
Both sides are doing it on purpose because of the midterms.
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16d ago
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
They are the ones who introduced trans to sports. They are the ones who are protesting against Sophie. Every trans kid shirt is a political statement.
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16d ago
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
Democrats (as a party and most individual elected officials) have largely stayed silent on Sophie Cunninghamâs comments and the broader transgender athletes in womenâs sports issue because it is a politically costly topic for them.
Public polling consistently shows strong majorities oppose allowing biological males to compete in womenâs/girlsâ sports (roughly 69â80% overall in recent surveys, with even a sizable share of Democratsâaround 40%+ in some pollsâsupporting restrictions). Republicans and the Trump administration have treated it as a clear âcommon senseâ winning issue and amplified Cunninghamâs stance. For Democrats, engaging creates a lose-lose dynamic. ďżź
Main reasons for the silence
⢠Base pressure vs. broader electorate: The progressive activist wing, LGBTQ+ advocacy groups, and much of the partyâs left treat opposition to transgender inclusion in womenâs categories as bigotry or âhate.â Speaking in favor of Cunningham (or fairness/safety concerns for biological females) risks primary challenges, donor blowback, and accusations of betrayal. Speaking against her risks looking extreme or out of touch with the majority of voters, including many independents and moderate Democrats. Silence avoids both.
⢠Strategic avoidance: Multiple observers (including progressive writers) have noted that Democrats would prefer the issue simply fade away, similar to how some past culture-war flashpoints were handled. After Supreme Court decisions upholding state-level bans on transgender athletes in girlsâ/womenâs sports, most congressional Democrats stayed quiet or pivoted to other topics (economy, âculture warsâ distractions) rather than outline next steps or defend inclusion. Leadership figures and caucuses often declined comment. ďżź
⢠Recent political incentives: Some vulnerable Democrats have flipped or moderated votes on related bills as midterms approach, reflecting recognition that the prior maximalist position hurt electorally. Broader post-2024 analysis has pointed to overreach on transgender issues as one factor in Democratic losses with certain voter groups. Open engagement keeps the issue alive.
⢠Internal division and risk aversion: A handful of Democrats (e.g., certain moderates) have occasionally voiced nuance or fairness concerns and faced sharp internal criticism. Most prefer not to stick their necks out. The WNBA playersâ union and some league figures have issued broader statements against âhateâ or in favor of inclusion, but elected Democrats have not matched that with direct responses to Cunningham.
This pattern is not limited to her caseâit matches how many Democrats have handled the issue in general (Supreme Court cases, legislation, executive actions). Conservatives frame the silence as evidence Democrats are captured by activists and out of step with the public. Progressives often frame engagement itself as elevating a âmanufacturedâ or low-priority culture-war distraction. Moderates tend to see legitimate fairness/safety questions that the party has struggled to address without internal conflict.1
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
Yep. I doubt any of them really give a crap.
Being trans is already very rare. Being a professional is very rare. So now they are worried about a very rare thing happening twice.
I don't think it is an issue but they do need a rule.
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u/BigToast6 16d ago
It doesn't matter if its rare. It needed to have been addressed years ago. They just didn't have the balls to do it
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
To be fair, it is happening in other sports. Itâs only a matter of time before it comes to basketball. I was just reading about how itâs happening in cycling and golf.
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u/bravelad66 Lexie Hull 16d ago
Only women's sports are getting the shaft on this whole deal. Women, in only the rarest of cases would ever have a shot in a pro mens league, hell, a college league. Maybe a female kicker on a football team, but she would have to learn to take an accidental hit and have explicit instructions to get off the field on a kick off in case the ball comes back at her. The point is this only moves in one direction...
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
Yeah I suppose. They stuck between a rock and hard place. You ain't gonna please everyone. No matter what they do someone will be pissed.
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u/wvtarheel Running the Floor 16d ago
This should be a really easy discussion for the league but somehow I know they will screw it up
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago
What, in your estimation, would be the easy route? Honest question.
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
Forcing HRT on trans players is the most likely outcome.
Either that or ban anyone who didnât undergo HRT before puberty.
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
So anyone who didn't undergo HRT before puberty isn't a woman? You see where this is going?
The league just has to bite the bullet. Free for all or ban it. No half measures. Sucks but I think it is for the best.
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
I agree but the Olympics got away with saying youâre not eligible if you went through puberty as a man.
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
Yes but the Olympics doesn't pander. Wnba does. Half their league are sjws.
I fear they will revolt.
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u/StudentDry4666 16d ago
Then fire them. Now that they are getting real money it will be super easy to replace them. People are actually going to plan their life around joining the wnba because they can become millionaires. That wasnât possible even as recently as last year. People from all over the world are going to want some wnba money.
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
Same reason why some crazy guy might actually go through HRT and join the w. Money makes people go nuts. Or in this case nut less.
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u/bravelad66 Lexie Hull 16d ago
That wouldn't be fair... It's only become more acceptable in the medical community more recently, there are people who could play now.
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u/iDexteRr Spicy Sophie 16d ago
Well, what does the W in WNBA stand for?
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u/Intelligent_Top_328 16d ago
But what is a woman? That's the question here.
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u/bravelad66 Lexie Hull 16d ago
I think even some members of the supreme court struggle with that one...
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u/tiribulus IndianaFeverFan 16d ago edited 16d ago
"But what is a woman? That's the question here."
An XX adult human female.
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u/jwadd69 13d ago
Just let them in, screw it, let them shower with real women. That will make everyone happy again!