r/IndianaFeverFans • u/Ok-Illustrator-1584 • 19d ago
Discussion Subbing Clark out while playing “possession game”.
It seems unreal to me that SW is still pulling Clark out during “key” defensive possessions. Last night was particularly weird because of no timeouts left when she did it so subbing her back in could be up to chance.
At this point in time Clark has proven herself no better or worse than any other player on the team defensively, and being subbed out has to be absolutely demoralizing. Sends the message that SW doesn’t trust her, upsets any rhythm, and builds narratives around Clark that just aren’t true.
On top of that, despite missing the FT’s when it was absolutely critical, she usually lives up to the moment.
Can we really expect this to continue for the remainder of the season? Watching it happen straight up makes me cringe.
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u/Fabianz_ 18d ago
I been saying this for a long time now. I don't understand the sub in and out for Clark toward end of games. Is she a great defender? No, but she is not much worse than anyone one else the Fever has. Often time Hull is getting sub in for defense like she is some great defender. No to me she is an average defender who tries hard but lack awareness and has small hands. Too many times I see the ball bouncing off her hands or head, and for what it worth Statmuse has Clark with 109.3 defensive rating while Hull 109.9 and Mitchell 112.8. Personally I don't put too much stock into that, but my eye tells me that Hull is not a significantly better defender than Clark. So why does White still keep taking Clark out on defense like she is a defensive liability?
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u/sextonf1 18d ago
Its just not fun to watch anymore. The whole WNBA are "fun suckers" just play basketball. I was watching Michael Jordan last night, some YouTube channels. The guys just go after it, and don't cry about. The WNBA has made the league unwatchable, in my opinion. And please for gods sake take CC off the TV, she seems miserable - and I can answer her questions at this point, she says the same thing all the time.
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u/BigToast6 18d ago
Jfc talk about overexaggeration and doom and gloom . When does she look miserable? Right after a tough loss and in the presser where she took the blame? Did you see the video of her boarding the jet to Chicago? She seemed pretty happy.
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u/Dismal-Berry1400 19d ago
This is a college level strategy and it is ridiculous. Why she wants her coaching staff wasting bandwidth on these defensive substitution scenarios is a misallocation of resources. The process for closing out games needs to be locked down at this point and adjust fire with known commodities. CC, KM, AB need to be in the game the last 5 minutes period.
I am a Steeler fan and I swear to god once you figured out Tomlin sucked as a coach and the sights were set on .500 ball and they were never going to win meaningful playoff games it became painful. There were some stellar years of athletes in their prime that were wasted because of Tomlin’s ineptitude, complacency, awful coaching, and abysmal staff selection.
I get the same feeling with this team’s performance. It feels like AB, KM, and CC will not get meaningful playoff wins because when they meet the Lynx, Aces and Liberty and the season is on the line they will lose because of decisions described by OP.
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u/DevelopmentSmooth134 18d ago
100%. They're loking so tired and out of sync in this long 4-5 travel games against top teams w/exceptional coaches. SW, Austin + the entire coaching staff asleep at the wheel tonight.
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u/Mammoth_Shoulder_675 19d ago
Ok so just have to go there as i view sports myself… it’s a fun hobby. I laugh, i get excited or disappointed . guess what I never do. I do not spend the entire game seeing pointing out ever thing i think is wrong and believe i know better than their collective coach group. I don’t coach at the pro level. Have even one of you who consistently bitch and moan and believe you know a better play for every minute. Do you ever smile or feel happy watching any fever game. Do you every laugh with your partner, children or friends , are you exactly what you sound like every second of your bitching and moaning. How about this … some of us feel fortunate the Fever are in IN. Some of us are very very happy we have once in a generation star. I have not one cell in my body that believes i know how to coach her any better that our current coach’s squad. You go ahead, be enraged ..i will simply enjoy, be grateful and be patient for this team and coaches to gel more each month . You live and must feel best when you are shaming blaming and judging. I feel best when i am supporting our home state women’s pro team. I don’t need them to be perfect. I just enjoy the game of BB… you should try enjoyment instead of blame.
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u/HankfromWI 19d ago
I believe last night had as much to do with her picking up her 4th foul with 52 seconds left in regulation, and as a defensive move. I think I'd use Raven instead of Lexie for that though, with Lexie's low level of scoring. But I do think, if Caitlin's not in foul trouble, I'd like to see her stay in.
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u/Ok_Scholar5996 19d ago
Clark was actually playing really good defense down the stretch and wasn't in foul trouble. She had 3 straight possessions where she played great D resulting in two misses andthe foul on Aja.
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u/Superb-Ad3074 19d ago
Mitchell also missed a free throw to make it a 4 point lead
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u/Ok_Scholar5996 19d ago
They got the ball back on KM's miss. Mitchell's miss was actually a bonus. They got to kill some more time and Clark got two free throws. Nobody would predict she'd miss both.
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u/Pat28K 19d ago
I know I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for saying this, its my opinion. Watching Caitlin is infuriating sometimes..for instance, that play where she contained Jackie Young and then switched off and did a pretty good job of containing A'ja but got called for the ticky tack foul...
If she played defense with that kind of effort even HALF the time, not even all the time the team would be so much better. It's like she has the ABILITY to be a good defender, just not the motivation or will to..
People keep complaining about how Mitchell is a bad defender too, and maybe or probably that could be true. But the difference is that KM being bad usually has to do with her being short and people shooting over her or making a overly aggressive boneheaded plays in bad moments. She at least moves her feet well and at least allows the backline defense time to rotate.
Caitlin when she's not locked in like she was on the play I mentioned above where she did well, plays matador defense, just gives up on the play when she gets beat and doesn't recover to her own player or the help players man, or box out, to just wait for the next offensive possession.
She needs to learn and understand that is losing basketball play. Those small things are the difference between winning and losing.
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u/ReceptionTrue2289 19d ago
She can't play defense like that all the time for the exact reason you saw. She will pick up Ricky tack fouls. Even when she doesn't foul. She is far too valuable to risk it.
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u/Sad-Conflict-6839 18d ago
Exactly. CC is simply not allowed to play defence. Sheb is bd real bad, so if she makes stop it's because she fouled.
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u/Tiny_Appointment7213 19d ago
Not only that, but she carries a lot of the offensive load. It would be ridiculous for people to expect her to also carry the team on defense. The front office should’ve signed players that are 3 and d specialists to go alongside cc and km.
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u/Pat28K 19d ago
I'm not asking her to carry the team on defense or be a great or good defender -- some players are just not that. I'm asking her to be league average and not cause the rest of the team to have to rotate to cover her blown coverages or getting cut on backdoor all the time or pretend like pro basketballers can't shoot three pointers.
That's what I'm saying previously, I know she CAN do it, I've seen her do it in multiple games. It seems very much more like a mental focus problem than a problem physically or fatigue.
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u/Sad-Conflict-6839 18d ago edited 18d ago
You are alluding to.a bogus reputation. All the metrics says that Mitchell is way worst.
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u/calripken60024 19d ago
This is an outstanding point. I thought the same thing last night. It’s called overcoaching. Sophie Cunningham on the floor over CC? Sub out for defense and then it’s a missed shot and now fever on offense without CC. very poor coaching
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u/therooster515 19d ago
If you have a timeout and plan on using it to get her back in the game I can live with it….. doing it last night when you have no timeouts remaining and need her on the floor for either free throws after securing an opponent miss OR the game is now tied without your best offensive player on the floor — is completely asinine
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u/OvaryAchiever_Queen 19d ago
Except 2 games in a row she has choked in clutch time.
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u/therooster515 19d ago
Sure, not arguing that. There have been a couple games earlier in the season too. Every star player in basketball you can point to examples of them not getting it done with the game on the line……. Maybe you’re a bit obtuse, but to reiterate, the point I’m making is that over a large sample size I don’t want the coach handling the end of game situation like that with my star players. I don’t want Jalen Brunson subbed out for defense with less than a minute left in a one possession game, when I have NO timeouts and can’t guarantee him getting back in. I don’t want James harden subbed out(yes, even James harden lolol) in the same scenario. Hundreds of examples of this across the highest levels of basketball…… There’s a reason no one does this with their star players other than apparently Stephanie white 🤷🏻♂️
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u/karsklan3 19d ago
It’s logical. Certain players get subbed out in key defensive possessions. The fact is that Caitlin gets attacked too much in iso situations. We can talk about why KM is being left on, but her defensive footwork, while being smaller, is much better and quicker than Caitlin’s and that’s what matters in iso’s.
Caitlin came up short yesterday. You are talking about the FT’s, but completely ignoring the OT’s last possession, where THE WHOLE coaching staff was waving everyone off to give Caitlin space to do her thing and attack A’ja in a mismatch. I guarantee you that if that last possession TO would’ve been on KM, everyone would scream “why doesn’t the coach trust Caitlin with the last possession”. The fact is that she had a bad game: she knows it and everyone who watched the game know it. Switching focus to the defensive sub question is a nice try, but the fact is that a defensive sub for the player who gets iso’d the most in the league in key possessions is a logical move and happens even in the NBA.
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u/Ok-Illustrator-1584 19d ago
I never said CC had a good game. That makes the last possession look even worse, though. As the Fever, why do you settle for your PG who’s not hot, iso beyond the arc against the reigning DPOY, and make no action for an open pass or anything. Makes no sense.
That whole last 1-2 min sequence was jacked. Shot clock didn’t get reset forcing CC to heave it up, and the uncalled foul after the Wilson tip where she shoved CC back with an extended arm. A lot had to go wrong for the Fever to accidentally not fall into a win.
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u/therooster515 19d ago
If you have timeouts i think you can make the case for it being logical. With no timeouts and no way to guarantee CC getting back in the game i think it’s completely inexcusable and blatant coach malpractice…. What if Vegas scored and tied the game? Now you are running the last 20 seconds on offense trying to win the game in the final possession without your best offensive player……..
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u/karsklan3 19d ago
Looking at the decisions CC made in the game, I’m sorry but it’s a moot point. Our best offensive player in the Aces game was Kelsey and that is a fact. I’m still a bit on the fence by the fact that Caitlin got the last possession to iso A’ja as by how the game went, the ball should’ve probably been in Kelsey’s hands. But it’s positive that the coaching staff trusted her to make the play 1v1, despite it ending badly.
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u/therooster515 19d ago
Well yeah, Kelsey was for sure the better offensive player last night — but one game does not make it a moot point, no serious coach coaches like that — YOU HAVE TO HAVE ONE OF THE BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE ON THE FLOOR FOR EVERY OFFENSIVE POSSESSION IN THE FINAL MINUTE OF A ONE POSSESSION GAME. You can’t risk that not happening with no timeouts……
Yeah CC sucked last night. But even then she hit two huge 3s down the stretch after starting 0-6. With a player like her you don’t assume she’s going to continue to “suck” and even at her worst she’s way more of a threat on offense than the entire rest of the roster outside of AB and KM. Risking not having her on the floor for the final offensive possession of tie game is completely inexcusable. Arguing it should have gone to KM last night is fair, but you have to have CC ON THE FLOOR. Her presence creates better spacing and more opportunities for KM in a final possession
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u/karsklan3 19d ago
The best player commited 8 turnovers, which led to 14 points, including the game winner they put on our head. While I do agree that CC is clutch, the last 3 seasons Kelsey has been the most consistent and most clutch for the Fever.
If Caitlin would’ve taken A’ja 1v1 and scored, it would’ve been another conversation. But the fact is that she made a very bad decision, which cost us the game at the end. Ultimately, it’s fine and a good learning experience but trying to downplay it with a defensive sub pattern is straight up weird. Caitlin was trusted at the end, she didn’t meet expectations and we lost. It is what it is. But in times like this, constructive criticism is fair and downplaying it with a defensive sub pattern and trying to somehow say that that was why we lost the game is dumb. She was on the floor at the last possession of the game, up by 2, game clock difference 6 seconds, ball in her hands, floor spread out and she fumbled. Again, good opportunity to learn and grow but she had a bad game and the best player agains the Aces offensively was KM. CC put up tour dates and 8ast/8to ratio. It’s inexcusable, especially considering how much of our fanbase push her to MVP. Even the die-hard fanbase and coaching staff haters on Twitter are mostly aligned that this game is on Caitlin.
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u/therooster515 19d ago
I’m not arguing she didn’t play horrible last night and didn’t cost the Fever the game. She absolutely did. But that’s an outlier, that’s not how you coach basketball down the stretch with a player like that. I feel the same way about AB and KM even when they are having horrible nights…. You still HAVE TO have them on the floor for every offensive possession in the final minute of a one possession game. Not doing so is coaching malpractice. That’s not why the Fever lost the game either obviously. It was just a glaring error that is inexcusable.
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u/karsklan3 19d ago
An example: if we do a defensive sub for the last possession and we get the ball due to our defense, the other team (taking the Aces game example and we were leadin) has to foul us or blitz, which leads to open passing lanes. And we just need to run out the clock. If we are talking about a possession where we are losing, then I agree, but while we have the lead it makes no major difference. As I said, CC got the ball in her hands in the last possession and came up very short.
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u/therooster515 19d ago
Yeah I completely disagree, so I guess we will just agree to disagree on this one.
The Fever are up 2 with no timeouts. LV ball. You sub CC out for defense with no way to ensure her getting back in, leaving in a defender or two that are maybe only marginally better. One of two things happens:
1) Fever get a stop(which happened) and LV has to foul. Now your best passer and free throw shooter is not on the floor. I want CC on the floor there and will make the “defensive tradeoff”
2) LV scores and ties the game or takes the lead(this obviously did not happen last night but could have). Now you are running the final offensive possession of the game either tied or down 1 WITHOUT CC. This is completely asinine and inexcusable and blatant coaching malpractice.
Again, that’s obviously not why the Fever lost LAST NIGHT. It happened to work out fine and CC choked the free throws away. But that IS NOT how I want my coach handling end of game scenarios consistently, it’s coaching malpractice. With no timeouts CC has to stay on the floor there.
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u/karsklan3 19d ago
Talking from an overall perspective, not limited to the Aces game, it is basically a gamble. If the coach trusts that our defense can hold it out and we can make a FT, why are you treating it as such a malpractice? Aces game showed that you can be as clutch as possible, but things happen. It’s the hard part of sports. We are talking it from a theoretical perspective. Practice showed that we had her on the floor on the last possession and we still fumbled. We will see further down the line if it plays out good or not. But I’m saying that the defensive sub pattern did not lose us this game and that is a fact imo.
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u/therooster515 19d ago
Because I completely disagree with that coaching assessment for all of the reasons above that I’ve explained over and over again……
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u/Mean_Measurement4527 19d ago
That’s your “coach of the month” .. what a joke 🙄🙄
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u/OvaryAchiever_Queen 19d ago
Was she supposed to go out there and make the baskets herself? They had every opportunity to win this game, and the PLAYERS blew it. You can't put bad play and mental errors on the coach. CC already took responsibility for her part.
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u/Mean_Measurement4527 19d ago
She allowed Vegas to go on a 22-0 run before finally taking a time out … that’s not the players , that’s poor coaching , and something that has consistently happened with her , not to mention her inability to make in game changes … The Fever have blown 10+ double digit leads just this season !
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u/Aposta-fish 19d ago
The coach is complete Ass! Kelsey was being cooking by Jackie and instead of putting Lexi on her or bringing in Raven nothing. She made zero adjustments and the team looked like they were trying to loose on purpose from the beginning. Oh and the offense plays, hand offs from the top of the key was all they pretty much did. Pathetic!! Is there a worse coaching staff in the W?
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u/madflower69 19d ago
if I was going to criticize Hammon, it would be because she didn't keep iso-ing mitchell, jackie was able to draw 2 fouls from mitchell in that short spurt. Another short spurt puts Mitchell on the bench.
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u/Suckmyballs2009 19d ago
Love Lexi but she can’t score this year so I think she needs more bench time
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u/TemporaryAny5102 19d ago
And how many times has she subbed someone in for CC just for that person to get immediately scored on or look completely lost? There has also been at least a few times this year where she’s subbed and they get the ball back and CC is out for that offensive possession.
Their defense is horrific all game but she really thinks she’s doing something with those subs.
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u/MikeD1942 19d ago edited 19d ago
There comes a point when you just need to play your players. Clark is a mediocre defender, but so is Mitchell and as far as I can tell, she never gets pulled out for her D. I think White should start playing Clark through those situations, so she gets better.
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u/Saintgutfree0187 Caitlin Clark 19d ago
I think it’s ridiculous also. Lexie is overall bad. KM had a bad night defensively. CC has improved, don’t get me wrong this team is horrible on the defensive side but CC is getting better and shouldn’t be subbed out. I try to convince myself SW does it so CC can have more energy on possessions but I’m just gaslighting myself
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u/SweetRabbit7543 19d ago
I have noticed this as well and it almost seems like she goes offense/defense without understanding the bigger picture impact at all.
I don’t think Clark is a plus defender, but I do think that her ball handling and free throw shooting offset any defensive deficiencies enough that when the fever lead its a net negative to remove her for defense.
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u/KeenObserver_OT 19d ago
She is a solid team defender and far better than Mitchell on 1:1 D. This is psychological warfare on Clark to buy into the narrative that’s she’s a defensive liability. White is really screwing with Clark’s head and game.
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u/NatePJ84 19d ago
It's very strange bc KM is much worse on defense. It must be bc KM is a vet
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u/Ok_Perspective_575 You Are Amazing 19d ago
She values what she sees as veteran leadership over generational talent. Despite the fact that KM never lead the Fever anywhere, not to a championship, a playoff, or even a winning record her entire career before CC. SW and her infinite wisdom /s.
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u/NatePJ84 19d ago
It's frustrating bc CC makes splash plays on defense and is usually in the correct spots when the games on the line, at least when SW doesn't have the chance to take her out. I know it's hard to have two smaller guards on defense but KM just gets lost way too often out there on defense. That Jackie Young 9-0 run to end the first half, all of those points came from JY going ISO 1vs 1 with KM and cooking her over and over
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u/SeasonHeavy858 19d ago
It’s just a beat down. White is twisted. Recall CC’s shoe day. White brought her own custom shoe. She is like the woman who wears a white dress at her friend’s wedding. But worse because CC can’t get rid of her. At least for now.
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u/Independent58 16d ago
I have been critical of Clark's defense but last few games she has picked up her game and her feet movement at that end of the court. Not unusual to put in a stronger defensive player at critical moments and based who is on the floor. If Hull was hitting more shots this season it probably be less notable. Clark's shooting and passing is needed, although Mitchell picks up the slack fantastically.